#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[Jon]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

Ok, but here's what I don't get: what are these "relevant texts"? Texts to the two locker room guys showing Brady and them colluding? If that's the case, the NFL already has their phones and knows what was said.

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

[BudweiserCeltic]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

That's not enough, as even the most limited scope of texts are susceptible to being leaked.

  Texts relevant to whether the balls were deflated are more susceptible to being part of the final report. The texts and emails that are related to Brady's personal life (i.e. what wasn't asked for) are what would be more likely to be "leaked".

I think you have a very limited imagination of the possibilities.

[Roy H.]

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

If that's what they wanted, why isn't it what Ted Wells requested? 

[Jon]

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

If that's what they wanted, why isn't it what Ted Wells requested?

What did he want to see then? They already had what Brady sent to the locker room guys. What else is there to see?

[BballTim]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

Ok, but here's what I don't get: what are these "relevant texts"? Texts to the two locker room guys showing Brady and them colluding? If that's the case, the NFL already has their phones and knows what was said.

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

  If they didn't ask for his phone and they only asked for Brady's representative to turn over copies of texts and emails related to the investigation, how were they going to do that?

[Roy H.]

I just don't see how you can take some of the Patriots' explanations at face value:

“Tom sucks . . . im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon.’’

Jastremski replied, “Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done.’’

[The Patriots] asserted the “Tom’’ in question was not Brady but a friend of Jastremski’s. He said the conversation involved “McNally’s stress relating to reselling family tickets’’ to Patriots games.

How does that make sense to anybody?  What's the friend Tom have to do with balls?  And "trying to get them done", after just talking about ball, is referring to selling tickets?

Come on.

I also here a lot about lack of direct evidence, and the ideal gas law.  However, even the Patriots admit that 3 of the 11 balls tested were lower than the ideal law suggests, even with the gauge most favorable to their case.

I just don't get this "lack of evidence" thing.  There's all kind of evidence, some of it stronger than others.  From everything I've seen, finding that the Patriots engaged in a scheme to deflate footballs does seem more likely than not.  It's perhaps not beyond a reasonable doubt, although I've seen juries convict on substantially weaker evidence.

[Jon]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

Ok, but here's what I don't get: what are these "relevant texts"? Texts to the two locker room guys showing Brady and them colluding? If that's the case, the NFL already has their phones and knows what was said.

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

  If they didn't ask for his phone and they only asked for Brady's representative to turn over copies of texts and emails related to the investigation, how were they going to do that?

But again, what defines "texts and emails related to the investigation"? Yes, it seems cut and dry when we talk about it in vague terms like that. But what does that mean? They already have all the texts Brady sent to the locker room guys, so what else is there to see?

[BballTim]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

That's not enough, as even the most limited scope of texts are susceptible to being leaked.

  Texts relevant to whether the balls were deflated are more susceptible to being part of the final report. The texts and emails that are related to Brady's personal life (i.e. what wasn't asked for) are what would be more likely to be "leaked".

I think you have a very limited imagination of the possibilities.

   I guess, if the thought is the league was going to leak texts they were never in possession of. Possibly unrelated, but I'm wondering why we're reading online about Brady's pool cover. Where did those texts come from? The league never had access to Brady's phone before he had it destroyed. Where did those texts come from?

[BballTim]

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

If that's what they wanted, why isn't it what Ted Wells requested?

What did he want to see then? They already had what Brady sent to the locker room guys. What else is there to see?

  Maybe they were looking for texts or emails sent to other people, maybe they were looking for texts and emails to other devices those guys owned, maybe they were going to compare the texts Brady gave them to the texts they got from those other guys to determine whether those other guys had deleted any messages.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I just don't see how you can take some of the Patriots' explanations at face value:

“Tom sucks . . . im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon.’’

Jastremski replied, “Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done.’’

[The Patriots] asserted the “Tom’’ in question was not Brady but a friend of Jastremski’s. He said the conversation involved “McNally’s stress relating to reselling family tickets’’ to Patriots games.

How does that make sense to anybody?  What's the friend Tom have to do with balls?  And "trying to get them done", after just talking about ball, is referring to selling tickets?

Come on.

I also here a lot about lack of direct evidence, and the ideal gas law.  However, even the Patriots admit that 3 of the 11 balls tested were lower than the ideal law suggests, even with the gauge most favorable to their case.

I just don't get this "lack of evidence" thing.  There's all kind of evidence, some of it stronger than others.  From everything I've seen, finding that the Patriots engaged in a scheme to deflate footballs does seem more likely than not.  It's perhaps not beyond a reasonable doubt, although I've seen juries convict on substantially weaker evidence.

Yeah, I don't buy the Tom's friend argument.

Also, it misses that the Patriots made the friend Tom available for an interview, something Wells didn't bother to investigate. So whether I believe it or not (which I don't), it makes for a shoddy work of an investigation of looking at things at all angles.

That said, all you're showing in this is not about Tom's guilt, but potential guilt from the Patriot's staff/equipment people.

Jastremski is responsible, from what I've gathered, for preparing Brady's game balls. Tom Brady seems to be very hard on him when he hasn't prepared them correctly or when gameballs are seemingly overinflated (16 PSI or so which was when Brady complained).

So what I've gathered from these texts is that Brady rides Jastremski hard. Jastremski worries about job security, and looks for someone to help him out in making sure the gameballs get on the field to Brady's liking (McNally).

Further more, Brady seemed to have texted Jastremski after the news came out in which he tries to console Jastremski telling him to don't worry, that Jastremski didn't do anything wrong... so up to that point Brady seemed to be to the understanding that they haven't done anything illegal or at least seemingly unaware of the other side of the scheme to make sure Brady had the balls the way he liked them when they got to the field.

I'll tell you this also, if they had a ball boy inflating/deflating game balls at his whim, he would've been fired.

[BudweiserCeltic]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

That's not enough, as even the most limited scope of texts are susceptible to being leaked.

  Texts relevant to whether the balls were deflated are more susceptible to being part of the final report. The texts and emails that are related to Brady's personal life (i.e. what wasn't asked for) are what would be more likely to be "leaked".

I think you have a very limited imagination of the possibilities.

   I guess, if the thought is the league was going to leak texts they were never in possession of. Possibly unrelated, but I'm wondering why we're reading online about Brady's pool cover. Where did those texts come from? The league never had access to Brady's phone before he had it destroyed. Where did those texts come from?

Emails he made available for the Appeal process... you know after he was punished for an unprecedented 4 game suspension, which makes little to no sense EVEN if guilty.

[Jon]

It seems to me they wanted to be able to look at every single text and email he ever sent to everyone in his life with the hope of finding something incriminating. That's not only ridiculously unfair, but also would have clearly lead to a leak of personal info.

If that's what they wanted, why isn't it what Ted Wells requested?

What did he want to see then? They already had what Brady sent to the locker room guys. What else is there to see?

  Maybe they were looking for texts or emails sent to other people, maybe they were looking for texts and emails to other devices those guys owned, maybe they were going to compare the texts Brady gave them to the texts they got from those other guys to determine whether those other guys had deleted any messages.

But what is the limit on that? Those are all such vague phrases. "Texts or emails sent to other people" would mean that Wells could conceivably look at every text and every email Brady sent to anyone else in his life.

And there are ways to check if people deleted texts. Well could have compared the actual number of texts that were on the phone with the number of texts shown on the bill. And for 3 million dollars, he should have found the time to do that.

[knuckleballer]

I just don't see how you can take some of the Patriots' explanations at face value:

“Tom sucks . . . im going make that next ball a [expletive] balloon.’’

Jastremski replied, “Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done.’’

[The Patriots] asserted the “Tom’’ in question was not Brady but a friend of Jastremski’s. He said the conversation involved “McNally’s stress relating to reselling family tickets’’ to Patriots games.

How does that make sense to anybody?  What's the friend Tom have to do with balls?  And "trying to get them done", after just talking about ball, is referring to selling tickets?

Come on.

I also here a lot about lack of direct evidence, and the ideal gas law.  However, even the Patriots admit that 3 of the 11 balls tested were lower than the ideal law suggests, even with the gauge most favorable to their case.

I just don't get this "lack of evidence" thing.  There's all kind of evidence, some of it stronger than others.  From everything I've seen, finding that the Patriots engaged in a scheme to deflate footballs does seem more likely than not.  It's perhaps not beyond a reasonable doubt, although I've seen juries convict on substantially weaker evidence.

There are valid reasons why balls would vary at half time and why 3 balls would be below what the IGL predicts.  Some balls would be out in the elements more.  Some balls would be in the middle of a collision between players.  Some balls would have had a defensive player land his helmet directly on the ball when making a tackle. 

Most importantly, some balls would be wetter than others.  Exponent did a test where they sprayed a ball using a spray bottle and then immediately dried it off, they repeated the step, but it is not an honest representation of what happens to a ball on the field in the rain.  Some balls would would have been out in the rain for minutes and would have rolled around in wet grass and had people landing on it.  Headsmart Labs did a study where they found wet balls losing an additional 0.7 psi vs. Exponent's experiment of 0.1.  There are other experiments finding the same thing as Headmart.

It doesn't even make sense for the ball boys to take air out of just three balls.  The fact is, overall the balls were in the expected range.  At worst, they took out an average of a few tenths of a psi which really doesn't even make any sense and was coincidentally the difference between the two gauges (hmmm).  And you can only get there if you believe the ref was wrong about which gauge (two very different looking gauges) he used to measure over 50 footballs just a few hours before this became a major ordeal.

[BballTim]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

That's not enough, as even the most limited scope of texts are susceptible to being leaked.

  Texts relevant to whether the balls were deflated are more susceptible to being part of the final report. The texts and emails that are related to Brady's personal life (i.e. what wasn't asked for) are what would be more likely to be "leaked".

I think you have a very limited imagination of the possibilities.

   I guess, if the thought is the league was going to leak texts they were never in possession of. Possibly unrelated, but I'm wondering why we're reading online about Brady's pool cover. Where did those texts come from? The league never had access to Brady's phone before he had it destroyed. Where did those texts come from?

Emails he made available for the Appeal process... you know after he was punished for an unprecedented 4 game suspension, which makes little to no sense EVEN if guilty.

  So, as part of the appeals process, Brady submits some emails completely unrelated to deflategate (in an effort to convince people he's trying to cooperate). Since they were made public (as the rest of the appeal was), he can now claim that he was right to not turn over texts because they'd obviously be leaked, and he was understandably worried that all of his personal (non deflate-gate related) texts, which the investigation *never asked to have* would also be leaked? I hope nobody's seeing anything else when they look at that.

[BudweiserCeltic]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/07/opinions/dowd-nfl-brady-investigation/

  The nfl doesn't seem to be faring too well in this, but the author of the article seems pretty clueless. First of all, I'm not sure why so many people think "I don't need to personally examine your phone, I just want some data that's stored on it" means "go ahead and destroy the phone (and the data on it), I don't mind". I'd guess I shouldn't be surprised that many of those same people think that supplying someone with a list of who you sent texts to counts as fully cooperating with a request for the content of some texts.

  Also, while it's easy to buy Brady's claim that he'd have turned over his phone if he knew he might get punished if he didn't, and it's easy to believe that he wasn't going to turn over his texts and emails because of the precedent that it would set for other players, it's kind of a stretch to believe them both.

That may all be true from a theoretical standpoint, but if you are the disciplinarian in a case and don't clearly make your expectations clear, then you are to blame.

And I don't blame Brady for destroying his phone. Of the emails he released, several are already all over the Internet (the pool cover, messages about his oldest son, comments about Peyton). God know what would have come out about his personal life of the NFL (who already has leaked numerous things) had gotten hold of it.

  I think that would be a solid argument for not handing over his phone to let the investigators rummage through all of his personal texts and emails. They sought to alleviate those concerns by having Brady's team go through the data on the phone and only turn over the relevant texts, and they seemed to be pretty clear in what they were asking for.

That's not enough, as even the most limited scope of texts are susceptible to being leaked.

  Texts relevant to whether the balls were deflated are more susceptible to being part of the final report. The texts and emails that are related to Brady's personal life (i.e. what wasn't asked for) are what would be more likely to be "leaked".

I think you have a very limited imagination of the possibilities.

   I guess, if the thought is the league was going to leak texts they were never in possession of. Possibly unrelated, but I'm wondering why we're reading online about Brady's pool cover. Where did those texts come from? The league never had access to Brady's phone before he had it destroyed. Where did those texts come from?

Emails he made available for the Appeal process... you know after he was punished for an unprecedented 4 game suspension, which makes little to no sense EVEN if guilty.

  So, as part of the appeals process, Brady submits some emails completely unrelated to deflategate (in an effort to convince people he's trying to cooperate). Since they were made public (as the rest of the appeal was), he can now claim that he was right to not turn over texts because they'd obviously be leaked, and he was understandably worried that all of his personal (non deflate-gate related) texts, which the investigation *never asked to have* would also be leaked? I hope nobody's seeing anything else when they look at that.

You're more worried about optics I see.

He doesn't need to make that argument (and I haven't seen anywhere where he's done it either).

Also, not sure who made these emails available anyways... it might have not been him or his party. Could've been accounts from the Patriots organization rather a personal email, which makes things like expectation of privacy a bit different.

You seem more worried about proving a point of who believes that Brady did anything wrong here (which I don't care for at all), while I'm interested in what the NFL actually has a right to do under the agreed CBA.