#DeflateGate (Court of Appeals Reinstates Suspension)

[Roy H.]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there?  And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

[mahonedog88]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

[Eja117]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there?  And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

On the radio today they made the case that essentially he was trying to prove a negative and that this is essentially possible. He would have had to provide a bunch of texts that would have had to say stuff like "Hey guys. I just want to remind you to make sure the balls are NOT below 12.5 psi for the game tomorrow".  Even then Wells would have just been like "A HA! Why would you need to send them reminders for that unless you knew they were planning to do it and had done it in the past. This is the most incriminating evidence yet".

I just don't see the possibility that it could have helped him in any way.

[Eja117]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

[PhoSita]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there?  And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

I don't know.  From what I've heard and read, there's a sentiment that in today's day and age, as a celebrity you shouldn't hand over your private texts and e-mails unless you really have to.  Even if, as Wells claims, Brady and his attorney could have screened what was and was not handed over, there might have been concerns about Brady's privacy being compromised. 

All for what?  To be able to say he complied in an investigation that he and his agent believed was a hatchet job from the start?

Also, as I posted earlier in the thread, it rings true to me that Brady would consider his role as a prominent member of the NFLPA in setting a bad precedent handing over personal devices / communications without an official court request.

[Roy H.]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

Collectively bargained contract rights are treated vastly differently than constitutional rights in criminal settings.  By not complying with the investigation, Brady violated the personal conduct policy of his employer.  Legally, there's no way he gets around that.

[mahonedog88]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

This isn't the law.  The NFL is a privately owned company so they can handle their business any way they want.  And their rulebook states that any type of non-compliance to assist in any kind of investigation is in direct violation of their rules.  So if they want to search your phone and you opt not to give it to them, that, by the letter of the NFL law, punishable.

[Eja117]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

This isn't the law.  The NFL is a privately owned company so they can handle their business any way they want.  And their rulebook states that any type of non-compliance to assist in any kind of investigation is in direct violation of their rules.  So if they want to search your phone and you opt not to give it to them, that, by the letter of the NFL law, punishable.

I am well aware that this isn't the law. It is beyond obvious Tom hasn't gotten anything even remotely resembling a fair trial.  I get that the NFL has attempted to keep all the control, but I am glad Tom stood up for himself and said "Hell no you don't get my phone".

Is Tom Brady the first player ever to be told to hand his phone over? Other than I assume the Browns who had that texting thing?

Anyway if the NFL is going to suspend Brady for not handing over his phone, then let's see it. Let's see how that goes. Sorry everyone. You don't get to see Brady play because he didn't hand over his phone and we sorta think he probably knew someone was most likely cheating on his behalf. 

This league is a joke and Goodell passed Bud Selig for worst commissioner of all time a while ago.

[mahonedog88]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

This isn't the law.  The NFL is a privately owned company so they can handle their business any way they want.  And their rulebook states that any type of non-compliance to assist in any kind of investigation is in direct violation of their rules.  So if they want to search your phone and you opt not to give it to them, that, by the letter of the NFL law, punishable.

I am well aware that this isn't the law. It is beyond obvious Tom hasn't gotten anything even remotely resembling a fair trial.  I get that the NFL has attempted to keep all the control, but I am glad Tom stood up for himself and said "Hell no you don't get my phone".

Is Tom Brady the first player ever to be told to hand his phone over? Other than I assume the Browns who had that texting thing?

Anyway if the NFL is going to suspend Brady for not handing over his phone, then let's see it. Let's see how that goes. Sorry everyone. You don't get to see Brady play because he didn't hand over his phone and we sorta think he probably knew someone was most likely cheating on his behalf. 

This league is a joke and Goodell passed Bud Selig for worst commissioner of all time a while ago.

There actually is precedent with the San Diego Chargers in 2012.  They were found to be putting a sticky substance on their game towels and then rubbing footballs with the towels.  The ref caught them, and asked them turn the towel in, but instead the Chargers refused and initially tried to hide the towels.  No suspensions were given and the Chargers were fined only $20,000.

So while it's technically two different situations, and it happened during a time where the league office wasn't as under the microscope that it's under now, it'll be interesting the path they choose

[Eja117]

It sounds to me like Brady's camp felt like the report was going to come out against them one way or another, so it wasn't going to help them any by handing over e-mails and text messages, etc.  Why take on the headache with little to gain and much to lose?

Well, if he was innocent, there wasn't much to lose, was there? And, by not complying, he was directly breaking NFL rules.

Exactly.  The fact that he didn't fully comply with the investigation I think is going to hurt him more than the actual act of deflating footballs.  Considering they can't get him dead to rights on the actual ball deflation, if the league is going to get a suspension out of this in any way, it will be because he didn't turn over his phone and fully cooperate.

Hasn't the Supreme Court ruled that cops can't even take your phone from you without a warrant? But the NFL is going to be allowed to go through the player's phones? No way. This league is a leak machine. The NFLPA would fight that and win.

This isn't the law.  The NFL is a privately owned company so they can handle their business any way they want.  And their rulebook states that any type of non-compliance to assist in any kind of investigation is in direct violation of their rules.  So if they want to search your phone and you opt not to give it to them, that, by the letter of the NFL law, punishable.

I am well aware that this isn't the law. It is beyond obvious Tom hasn't gotten anything even remotely resembling a fair trial.  I get that the NFL has attempted to keep all the control, but I am glad Tom stood up for himself and said "Hell no you don't get my phone".

Is Tom Brady the first player ever to be told to hand his phone over? Other than I assume the Browns who had that texting thing?

Anyway if the NFL is going to suspend Brady for not handing over his phone, then let's see it. Let's see how that goes. Sorry everyone. You don't get to see Brady play because he didn't hand over his phone and we sorta think he probably knew someone was most likely cheating on his behalf. 

This league is a joke and Goodell passed Bud Selig for worst commissioner of all time a while ago.

There actually is precedent with the San Diego Chargers in 2012.  They were found to be putting a sticky substance on a towel and then rubbing that towel with a football.  The ref caught them, and asked them turn the towel in, but instead the Chargers refused and initially tried to hide the towel.  No suspensions were given and the Chargers were fined only $20,000.

So while it's technically two different situations, it'll be interesting to see how consistent the league is with former rulings like this.

The reason the rulings will be different is that nobody cares when a worthless team like the Chargers cheat. Nobody cares when anybody cheats at something fairly immaterial unless it's the Patriots.  You will see. First it was Spygate where the Pats were following the rule as written, while other teams were doing it. Now they're getting this because they probably kinda sorta maybe did it, while other teams are being caught on live national tv and other players are openly admitting to it.

Boston sports get fudged on frequently because Boston sports are tremendously superior to the sports of other cities. This is the only place they can win against Boston...the court of public envy. I would call it the court of public opinion but it's not opinion.

This is why I look down on the sports scene of so many other cities. Tell em again how terrible the Patriots a...OH THEY SCORED ANOTHER TOUCHDOWN!

I'm hearing people say Brady shouldn't be allowed in the Hall of Fame, but I have said for years if he wants to be around the best that ever played all he has to do is call over his old teammates for a ring cleaning party.  The rest of the league is pathetic and will be for a while.

I predict it will get more pathetic too. This won't stop. They will find whatever stupid thing you have never heard of to try to beat the Patriots the only way they can. Their cleats were too sharp. Their pads were made of a substance that was too hard. Boo hoo.

They don't even need proof anymore.

They have changed the rules on the Pats like 3 times. If you're the Ravens you don't try to figure out what the Pats do and counter it. You go to the rules committee to change the rule because it's the only place you can beat the Pats.

Honestly I'm starting to like it. Makes winning a lot more satisfying.

[Celtics4ever]

I think he belongs in the HOF and I think Pete Rose does as well but what they did was night and day and nothing has been proved on Brady though I think the NFL will still come after him.

[Neurotic Guy]

Tom Brady was found guilty of being "generally aware of the inappropriate activities ... involving the release of air from Patriots game balls,"

That means that he was not found guilty of being "specifically aware" of the inappropriate activities.

So my conclusion is that Brady probably said something like this to his subordinates McNally and Jastremski: "Listen guys, you know exactly how I like my footcbals...GET THEM THE WAY I LIKE THEM".
This is different from huddling them up and saying, "Listen guys, here's the plan -- see that bathroom over there?  After the refs OK the footballs, I want you to...."

I am guiessing that the actual PSI was never disussed by Brady, but that the implication was that he liked the balls on the low side of the legal range and that it was McNally and Jastremski's job to get it there.   I am certain that they took Brady's instructions to mean -- "find a way" or "no matter what, get it done".   

In my opinin this DOES implicate Brady as compicit in the deflation of the footballs, since McNally/Jastremski were following the spirit of his directive.   It does not make him guilty of INSTRUCTIONG his guys to deflate AFTER the refs approval or instructing them to deflate below the legal limit -- but makes him generally complicit in the conspiracy. 

Since Brady can plausibly claim that he never instructed the guys to deflate UNDER the legal limit, and he can plausibly claim that he never instructed them to covertly deflate after refs approval, I think his role is slightly mitigated.   Thus, he is "generally aware" of the inappropriate activities -- but not specifically aware of the extent to which the guys went to in order please their very powerful boss.

As a person who used his power to play a key role in the process ("get the footballs the way I want them"), Brady should be fined.  I'll say $100,000.

As the perptrators of the crime, and as adults who are capable of making adult decisions even in the face of a demand of a "boss", McNally and Jastremski should be fired.  McNally and Jastremski chose to take the directive too far by releasing air below the legal limits and doing so after the refs approval -- knowingly circumventing the rules.

The Patriots organization conspired, in effect, to circumvent the rules and is responsible for the violation even though there is no evidence that Kraft or Bill had any knowledge of the circumstances.   The organization should forfeit their 2016 3rd round draft pick and be fined $500.000.

[Eja117]

The NFL just needs to be honest and explain the typical NFL standard and the different standards they hold the Patriots to so everyone knows what to shoot for.

[mahonedog88]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/myers-roger-goodell-suspend-tom-brady-deflategate-article-1.2215881

So it's only one report, but according to the New York Times, Brady's definitely being suspended.  The league office 100% buys into the Wells Report and will suspend him for both cheating, and failure to fully comply with the investigation  Now it's just matter of how many games.  Can't say I didn't see this coming.

Now it doesn't mean this story is over by any means.  Given the media tour his agent has gone on, you have to assume Brady will appeal.  So whatever amount of games we initially hear, there's always the chance that it gets knocked down by a game or two.  As Patriots fans, the only thing left to hang on to is that something happens similar to the Jonathan Vilma case in Bountygate, where he was initially suspended for the season, appealed it, won his appeal by the start of the season...but then oddly enough Goodell was able to bypass the appeal somehow (which I'm still confused about) and still suspend him for the year.  But then it took former commish Tagliabue to step in and review it and vacate Goodell's ruling (which I also don't understand how he had the authority to do it, but he did)...and Vilma ended up missing 5 games, but only because of injury.

A lot of things need to go right for something similar to this to happen again.  But just like the Patriots already are, as fans, I think it's time to get on board and prepare for the worst.

[kozlodoev]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/myers-roger-goodell-suspend-tom-brady-deflategate-article-1.2215881

So it's only one report, but according to the New York Times, Brady's definitely being suspended.  The league office 100% buys into the Wells Report and will suspend him for both cheating, and failure to fully comply with the investigation  Now it's just matter of how many games.  Can't say I didn't see this coming.

First of all, the New York Daily News is not the New York Times... in pretty much the same way in which the Washington Generals are not the Washington Wizards. And second, Goodell already said he's not handing the suspension, so I guess they have to get their sources straight?