Knicks (4-20) at Celtics (7-13) Game #21 12/12/14

[MBunge]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Not if that solution is needing the equivalent of KG, Ray and Pierce with Rondo to be a contender.

Mike

[TheFlex]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Could be part of a solution, but not necessary to the team's rebuild.

[Rondo9]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Could be part of a solution, but not necessary to the team's rebuild.

Of course he is neccessary, it means if they get a superstar then it'll less players they have to build around him.

[Rondo9]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Not if that solution is needing the equivalent of KG, Ray and Pierce with Rondo to be a contender.

Mike

I don't think Rondo sooooo awful that he needs superstars to make him look good. I thought we've dismissed that claim years ago.

[Eddie20]

Rondo's stat line: 32 mins, 1-3 FGM-A, 0 PTS, 7 RBS, 10 AST.

They cannot survive with him being this passive. Only 3 fg attempts? ZERO points? Come on man. This has become an extremely troubling trend this season. He legitimately cannot score. I don't care that he averages 10 assists a game. He's becoming a huge problem.

No he's not it's the teams defense is the problem

You don't think it's a problem that the so called "star" (as many of you put it) of the team is averaging under 10 PPG, shooting under 40% shooting, around 30% FT, and sub par defense in a contract year? I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Rondo fits on this team.

First of all yes rondo is a star and second while his numbers are low they're not be all end all of a player and I expect it to improve there are more problems to this team than just rondo

Well, at least you agree that Rondo is part of the problem.

A small part of the problem but not a huge part or the problem like you and the others suggesting him to be

In the last 8 games he's scored 2 pts or less 5 times. 5 times and he's playing major minutes.

He's a complete liability in the 4Q, which should be no coincidence that we've had so many late game collapses. Just yesterday, Forsberg wrote about him shooting 27.9% from the field and a minus 47 in +/- in the 4Q.

Sounds like the problem is a little larger than you care to give it credit for. Plus, he's about to get major money that would tie up a good chunk of our cap.

If he's the awful player you seem to want to make him out to be, why would Ainge or any other team offer him huge money? To suggest that they would, it seems you believe that they don't understand basketball the way that you do.

I never said he's an awful player. He's a good player, but ridiculously flawed. A player that seems to be overrated more on his flashiness then his actual impact on the game. Whoever pays him near max will have immediate buyers remorse.

Or will be satisfied that they got a unique and impactful player who's probably the best passer in the NBA right now.

Unique? I agree if you mean unique in that he combines a high skill (passing/ballhandling) with perhaps one of the lowest at guard spot (shooting).

Impactful? I'm sure you aren't referring to the 4Q. Usually that's where the highest impact of a game is made.

Best passer? He's in the conversation, certainly.

Satisfied? Sure, if they get him for around 10M a year, but when you're paying that much to a player you expect him to bring more and to take over games for you when it counts. Rondo doesn't do that. Sadly, this isn't baseball and you can't bring in a closer to finish the game.

[PAOBoston]

Rondo's stat line: 32 mins, 1-3 FGM-A, 0 PTS, 7 RBS, 10 AST.

They cannot survive with him being this passive. Only 3 fg attempts? ZERO points? Come on man. This has become an extremely troubling trend this season. He legitimately cannot score. I don't care that he averages 10 assists a game. He's becoming a huge problem.

No he's not it's the teams defense is the problem

You don't think it's a problem that the so called "star" (as many of you put it) of the team is averaging under 10 PPG, shooting under 40% shooting, around 30% FT, and sub par defense in a contract year? I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Rondo fits on this team.

First of all yes rondo is a star and second while his numbers are low they're not be all end all of a player and I expect it to improve there are more problems to this team than just rondo

Well, at least you agree that Rondo is part of the problem.

A small part of the problem but not a huge part or the problem like you and the others suggesting him to be

I think he's a pretty decent sized problem who also poses a unique and difficult issue for the C's. Rondo's performance has been rather poor since he's come back from his ACL injury. I gave him a break for last year but his poor play has continued into this year as well. I think a large part of the C's failure in the 4th quarter of games is a result of his flaws. He's easily the most recognizable player on the C's but he's due for a new contract and pay rise. Personally, I think it's wasted money to pay Rondo when you invested a lottery pick in another promising PG. I don't hate the guy but it rather evident that he isn't the same player he used t be. Either he needs to be moved at the deadline for some type of assets or they should just let him walk this summer.

Just my 2 cents.

[TheFlex]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Could be part of a solution, but not necessary to the team's rebuild.

Of course he is neccessary, it means if they get a superstar then it'll less players they have to build around him.

When did pulling off a Ray Allen-KG summer, a LeBron-Bosh summer or a LeBron-Love summer suddenly become so much more likely than adding a top 5 pick to Smart and Sully?

Obviously if it were to happen, the chances of such FA/trade acquisitions are more likely to translate into wins than the chances of drafting a top talent are, but the chances of drafting that top talent is so much more likely than pulling in the multiple stars needed to plug next to Rondo in order to win.

[Rondo9]

Rondo's stat line: 32 mins, 1-3 FGM-A, 0 PTS, 7 RBS, 10 AST.

They cannot survive with him being this passive. Only 3 fg attempts? ZERO points? Come on man. This has become an extremely troubling trend this season. He legitimately cannot score. I don't care that he averages 10 assists a game. He's becoming a huge problem.

No he's not it's the teams defense is the problem

You don't think it's a problem that the so called "star" (as many of you put it) of the team is averaging under 10 PPG, shooting under 40% shooting, around 30% FT, and sub par defense in a contract year? I guess we'll agree to disagree. I don't think Rondo fits on this team.

First of all yes rondo is a star and second while his numbers are low they're not be all end all of a player and I expect it to improve there are more problems to this team than just rondo

Well, at least you agree that Rondo is part of the problem.

A small part of the problem but not a huge part or the problem like you and the others suggesting him to be

I think he's a pretty decent sized problem who also poses a unique and difficult issue for the C's. Rondo's performance has been rather poor since he's come back from his ACL injury. I gave him a break for last year but his poor play has continued into this year as well. I think a large part of the C's failure in the 4th quarter of games is a result of his flaws. He's easily the most recognizable player on the C's but he's due for a new contract and pay rise. Personally, I think it's wasted money to pay Rondo when you invested a lottery pick in another promising PG. I don't hate the guy but it rather evident that he isn't the same player he used t be. Either he needs to be moved at the deadline for some type of assets or they should just let him walk this summer.

Just my 2 cents.

I think a big problem for 4th quarter meltdowns is that they stop executing their plays not Rondo.

[Rondo9]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Could be part of a solution, but not necessary to the team's rebuild.

Of course he is neccessary, it means if they get a superstar then it'll less players they have to build around him.

When did pulling off a Ray Allen-KG summer, a LeBron-Bosh summer or a LeBron-Love summer suddenly become so much more likely than adding a top 5 pick to Smart and Sully?

Obviously if it were to happen, the chances of such FA/trade acquisitions are more likely to translate into wins than the chances of drafting a top talent are, but the chances of drafting that top talent is so much more likely than pulling in the multiple stars needed to plug next to Rondo in order to win.

\\

I've never said it was likely.....

[TheFlex]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Not if that solution is needing the equivalent of KG, Ray and Pierce with Rondo to be a contender.

Mike

I don't think Rondo sooooo awful that he needs superstars to make him look good. I thought we've dismissed that claim years ago.

Not to make him look good, but the impact of Rondo's performance in terms of wins and losses is dependent on having good surrounding players that can make shots and create for themselves.

Rondo is posting numbers similar to past seasons (outside of PPG and a few other things like FT%). But it appears as if the team is dreadful with or without him.

During the Big Three era Rondo's WS/48 starting in 2008-09 consistently declined as the Big Three got older, despite developing into a better and better player as each season passed. In the seasons 2008-09 and 2009-10, two of Rondo's best seasons in terms of overall team impact, Rondo posted WS/48s of .179 and .156. In both of these seasons his stats were essentially what we would expect from him in the Big Three era. His assist numbers were sub-10/game but he was scoring the ball at around a 12-14/game clip and he was defending at a high level.

In 2012-13, his WS/48 took a significant hit, falling below .120 for the first time since his rookie season. In that season, despite posting league-best assist averages and tying his career high for PPG, Rondo's WS/48 dropped down to .108.

This year, Rondo continues to post league-best assist numbers, astonishingly good rebounding numbers and is already nearing the total defensive Win Shares that he contributed (during half of) last season. However, his overall WS/48 is at a miserable .039, a career-low.

There is an argument to made that any player will see their team impact fall with a lesser team around them. A bad team means less wins and less wins means less wins that one individual player can contribute. Let's examine how true this holds for a former Celtic who also saw night and day talent throughout his career, Paul Pierce.

In his first season without Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce's WS/48 took a significant hit (-.048). In the following season however, Pierce posted a near career high in WS/48 (.182, +.73 from the following season and +.015 from his final season with Walker). Including his injury riddled 2006-07 season, Pierce went on to average .154 WS/48 from 2003-04 to 2006-07. Excluding the 2006-07 season, Pierce's WS/48 average within that period was .156. From '98-99 to 2002-03 (with Antoine Walker), Pierce's WS/48 average was .160.

Then, Pierce saw a massive jump in his 2007-08 WS/48 (.207). Much of this can be attributed to his re-dedication to defense, as his advanced offensive statistics were in many respects worse than his advanced offensive statistics in past seasons. From 2007-08 to 2012-13, Pierce averaged a WS/48 of .172, +.012 from the Antoine Walker era and +.016 from the iso-Pierce era.

From 2007-08 to 2012-13, including his 2012-13 season which one major injury derailed, Rondo averaged a WS/48 of .140. Excluding this season, the average jumps to .146. Including his return-from-injury 2013-14 season, Rondo has averaged a mere .047 WS/48 since, nearly a full tenth of a win per game less than either average (injury included or excluded) he posted in the Big Three era.

While it's certainly a small sample size, if anything the statistics support the argument that Rondo's impact on a game result is heavily dependent on above-average teammates, and it hardly dismisses the claim.

Again, Rondo will still get roughly ten assists a game and post intriguing trip-dub totals, but from what we've seen so far, such performances do not translate into wins nearly as easily as they do with teammates like KG and Paul Pierce.

[Rondo9]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Not if that solution is needing the equivalent of KG, Ray and Pierce with Rondo to be a contender.

Mike

I don't think Rondo sooooo awful that he needs superstars to make him look good. I thought we've dismissed that claim years ago.

Not to make him look good, but the impact of Rondo's performance in terms of wins and losses is dependent on having good surrounding players that can make shots and create for themselves.

Rondo is posting numbers similar to past seasons (outside of PPG and a few other things like FT%). But it appears as if the team is dreadful with or without him.

During the Big Three era Rondo's WS/48 starting in 2008-09 consistently declined as the Big Three got older, despite developing into a better and better player as each season passed. In the seasons 2008-09 and 2009-10, two of Rondo's best seasons in terms of overall team impact, Rondo posted WS/48s of .179 and .156. In both of these seasons his stats were essentially what we would expect from him in the Big Three era. His assist numbers were sub-10/game but he was scoring the ball at around a 12-14/game clip and he was defending at a high level.

In 2012-13, his WS/48 took a significant hit, falling below .120 for the first time since his rookie season. In that season, despite posting league-best assist averages and tying his career high for PPG, Rondo's WS/48 dropped down to .108.

This year, Rondo continues to post league-best assist numbers, astonishingly good rebounding numbers and is already nearing the total defensive Win Shares that he contributed (during half of) last season. However, his overall WS/48 is at a miserable .039, a career-low.

There is an argument to made that any player will see their team impact fall with a lesser team around them. A bad team means less wins and less wins means less wins that one individual player can contribute. Let's examine how true this holds for a former Celtic who also saw night and day talent throughout his career, Paul Pierce.

In his first season without Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce's WS/48 took a significant hit (-.048). In the following season however, Pierce posted a near career high in WS/48 (.182, +.73 from the following season and +.015 from his final season with Walker). Including his injury riddled 2006-07 season, Pierce went on to average .154 WS/48 from 2003-04 to 2006-07. Excluding the 2006-07 season, Pierce's WS/48 average within that period was .156. From '98-99 to 2002-03 (with Antoine Walker), Pierce's WS/48 average was .160.

Then, Pierce saw a massive jump in his 2007-08 WS/48 (.207). Much of this can be attributed to his re-dedication to defense, as his advanced offensive statistics were in many respects worse than his advanced offensive statistics in past seasons. From 2007-08 to 2012-13, Pierce averaged a WS/48 of .172, +.012 from the Antoine Walker era and +.016 from the iso-Pierce era.

From 2007-08 to 2012-13, including his 2012-13 season which one major injury derailed, Rondo averaged a WS/48 of .140. Excluding this season, the average jumps to .146. Including his return-from-injury 2013-14 season, Rondo has averaged a mere .047 WS/48, nearly a full tenth of a win per game less than either average (injury included or excluded) he posted in the Big Three era.

While it's certainly a small sample size, if anything the statistics support the argument that Rondo's impact on a game result is heavily dependent on above-average teammates, and it hardly dismisses the claim.

Again, Rondo will still get roughly ten assists a game and post intriguing trip-dub totals, but from what we've seen so far, such performances do not translate into wins nearly as easily as they do with teammates like KG and Paul Pierce.

So like Pierce surround Rondo with better teammates and he'll be more impactful

[TheFlex]

Rondo is not THE problem.

He is demonstrating, though, that he isn't THE solution.

Mike

But he's part of the solution

Not if that solution is needing the equivalent of KG, Ray and Pierce with Rondo to be a contender.

Mike

I don't think Rondo sooooo awful that he needs superstars to make him look good. I thought we've dismissed that claim years ago.

Not to make him look good, but the impact of Rondo's performance in terms of wins and losses is dependent on having good surrounding players that can make shots and create for themselves.

Rondo is posting numbers similar to past seasons (outside of PPG and a few other things like FT%). But it appears as if the team is dreadful with or without him.

During the Big Three era Rondo's WS/48 starting in 2008-09 consistently declined as the Big Three got older, despite developing into a better and better player as each season passed. In the seasons 2008-09 and 2009-10, two of Rondo's best seasons in terms of overall team impact, Rondo posted WS/48s of .179 and .156. In both of these seasons his stats were essentially what we would expect from him in the Big Three era. His assist numbers were sub-10/game but he was scoring the ball at around a 12-14/game clip and he was defending at a high level.

In 2012-13, his WS/48 took a significant hit, falling below .120 for the first time since his rookie season. In that season, despite posting league-best assist averages and tying his career high for PPG, Rondo's WS/48 dropped down to .108.

This year, Rondo continues to post league-best assist numbers, astonishingly good rebounding numbers and is already nearing the total defensive Win Shares that he contributed (during half of) last season. However, his overall WS/48 is at a miserable .039, a career-low.

There is an argument to made that any player will see their team impact fall with a lesser team around them. A bad team means less wins and less wins means less wins that one individual player can contribute. Let's examine how true this holds for a former Celtic who also saw night and day talent throughout his career, Paul Pierce.

In his first season without Antoine Walker, Paul Pierce's WS/48 took a significant hit (-.048). In the following season however, Pierce posted a near career high in WS/48 (.182, +.73 from the following season and +.015 from his final season with Walker). Including his injury riddled 2006-07 season, Pierce went on to average .154 WS/48 from 2003-04 to 2006-07. Excluding the 2006-07 season, Pierce's WS/48 average within that period was .156. From '98-99 to 2002-03 (with Antoine Walker), Pierce's WS/48 average was .160.

Then, Pierce saw a massive jump in his 2007-08 WS/48 (.207). Much of this can be attributed to his re-dedication to defense, as his advanced offensive statistics were in many respects worse than his advanced offensive statistics in past seasons. From 2007-08 to 2012-13, Pierce averaged a WS/48 of .172, +.012 from the Antoine Walker era and +.016 from the iso-Pierce era.

From 2007-08 to 2012-13, including his 2012-13 season which one major injury derailed, Rondo averaged a WS/48 of .140. Excluding this season, the average jumps to .146. Including his return-from-injury 2013-14 season, Rondo has averaged a mere .047 WS/48, nearly a full tenth of a win per game less than either average (injury included or excluded) he posted in the Big Three era.

While it's certainly a small sample size, if anything the statistics support the argument that Rondo's impact on a game result is heavily dependent on above-average teammates, and it hardly dismisses the claim.

Again, Rondo will still get roughly ten assists a game and post intriguing trip-dub totals, but from what we've seen so far, such performances do not translate into wins nearly as easily as they do with teammates like KG and Paul Pierce.

So like Pierce surround Rondo with better teammates and he'll be more impactful

Willful misinterpretation of the statistics.

Pierce was a true star. His performance resulted in wins with little deviation when he had lesser teammates. He was deserving of a max or near-max contract and of the title of franchise player.

Rondo is a quasi-star. His performance results in wins when he has good teammates and in far less wins when he has lesser teammates. He is deserving of neither a max or near-max contract nor of the title of franchise player.

[Rondo9]

But even with Pierce the Celtics had very bad years and while he may require less players to build around than Rondo. It wasn't until the arrival of Garnett and Allen that Pierce really stepped up.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

Maybe the most disturbing thing this season is that having a healthy Rondo back seems to make absolutely no difference. 

Mike

Good point. I can't see this team being significantly (if at all) worse this season without him.

[Rondo9]

Maybe the most disturbing thing this season is that having a healthy Rondo back seems to make absolutely no difference. 

Mike

Good point. I can't see this team being significantly (if at all) worse this season without him.

Oh I think they'll be worse without him. Considering how the offense usually sputters as soon as Rondo sits.