Could Rondo average a triple double for the season?

[Roy H.]

There's no way of knowing, but I think that if Larry handled the ball more, he could have gotten the other 2.5 assists or whatever he needed.

Only four times in his career was Larry in the top-10 in the NBA in usage, and only once was he higher than ninth.  If he had the ball more and if he focused just a small bit more on assists, I think he could have fairly easily done it.

[D.o.s.]

I think the strongest argument in his favor there is that he played on one of the best teams of all time (86, in case anyone who's not all that stoked on C's history is reading), so those assists would, in theory, be fairly easy to come by, particularly because of the way the team played anyway.

OTOH, he didn't, you know, do it. You could just as easily say that you bet Kobe (or Jordan) could've broken Wilt's record, too -- Although Bird was much closer to the Averaged Triple Double than those two.

[Who]

I think you need to play PG to get to double digit assist averages over whole season. I don't see a two guard or point forward managing that.

I think you need to be a forward or center to get double digit rebounds. Too difficult for a guard to do it over 82 games. Too many nights where a guard simply won't be in position to get 8-12 rebounds. Very difficult to continue make that deficit up on other days.

I think LeBron would have had a chance at it if he had of been used in such a way over a full season. If LeBron had played PG full time on offense instead of sharing duties with guys like Mo Williams and Mario Chalmers. And, I think LeBron would need to play PF defensively vast majority of the time -- a responsibility he has frequently shirked away from over his career.

[kozlodoev]

He is still an all-star caliber player.

He's the first "all-star caliber player" I've heard of that can't average 10 ppg.

[sofutomygaha]

He is still an all-star caliber player.

He's the first "all-star caliber player" I've heard of that can't average 10 ppg.

At the beginning of the season, when he was averaging like 9-11-9, I was convinced he was going for it.

He almost surely will finish the season above 10ppg. He's never been this bad a scorer. Heck, if his free throw shooting regresses to the mean, he'll be at 9.5 ppg just like that.

I think that the Celtics are actually trying to get him rebounds- his rebound percentage is so much higher this year than ever before that it must reflect the strategic decision on the C's part to block out with their bigs and let him in to get rebounds and push the ball back up court.

Still, I think he's going to finish the season somewhere around 11-11-6.

[kozlodoev]

I think that the Celtics are actually trying to get him rebounds- his rebound percentage is so much higher this year than ever before that it must reflect the strategic decision on the C's part to block out with their bigs and let him in to get rebounds and push the ball back up court.

I don't think boxing out is a strategic decision, it's a fundamental rebounding skill. Zeller and Olynyk are pretty good with it.

[Vermont Green]

I think this thread came around to the essential point.  Bird never "went for" triple doubles or any other stat because doing so was not essential to winning.  I don't know first hand what was going on in the game when Big O got his season triple-double but if a player did it today, it would be at the expense of his team, not the benefit of his team.  A triple-double here and there, sure, that can happen while staying in the flow of the game or maybe only stat grabbing a little.  To do it for a season would require stat grabbing at an unnatural level; meaning not in the natural flow of winning basketball.

Rondo would benefit the team more if he scored more and rebounded less.  The team would probably also benefit if assists were more uniformly distributed among all players, not one player getting them all.  I suspect that Rondo understands this and that he will not start "going for" triple doubles for the sake of getting triple doubles.

[BballTim]

He is still an all-star caliber player.

He's the first "all-star caliber player" I've heard of that can't average 10 ppg.

  First of all, *can't* average 10ppg isn't really accurate, he's done so 7 straight years. It's like saying LeBron can't average 6 rebounds a game because he isn't doing so right now. Secondly, if you're looking for 'all-star caliber players" who can't average 10 ppg, start with Rodman and Wallace. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more. Not that that's really the point though.

[Fafnir]

I think that the Celtics are actually trying to get him rebounds- his rebound percentage is so much higher this year than ever before that it must reflect the strategic decision on the C's part to block out with their bigs and let him in to get rebounds and push the ball back up court.

I don't think boxing out is a strategic decision, it's a fundamental rebounding skill. Zeller and Olynyk are pretty good with it.

Whether or not your guards/wings are supposed to run out or crash the glass is a strategic decision though. After our intial rebounding woes last year Stevens definitely started having that happen more often. Along with coaching boxing out more among our bigs, at least thats what he stated in one interview.

[D.o.s.]

I think this thread came around to the essential point.  Bird never "went for" triple doubles or any other stat because doing so was not essential to winning.  I don't know first hand what was going on in the game when Big O got his season triple-double but if a player did it today, it would be at the expense of his team, not the benefit of his team.  A triple-double here and there, sure, that can happen while staying in the flow of the game or maybe only stat grabbing a little.  To do it for a season would require stat grabbing at an unnatural level; meaning not in the natural flow of winning basketball.

Rondo would benefit the team more if he scored more and rebounded less.  The team would probably also benefit if assists were more uniformly distributed among all players, not one player getting them all.  I suspect that Rondo understands this and that he will not start "going for" triple doubles for the sake of getting triple doubles.

Busy, but I don't know if I agree with the first two sentences in the second paragraph of this post.

[Celtics4ever]

I don't think boxing out is a strategic decision, it's a fundamental rebounding skill. Zeller and Olynyk are pretty good with it.

And yet neither are good rebounders!

It is a fundamental skill if your unathletic and in grade school.   Athletes can just go up and get it.   Russell used his length and jumping more than boxing out.  Even athletes will seal and zip towards the ball but they are not boxing out purists.   Rodman did not always box out because the best rebounders know where the ball is coming and move towards it.   Sully is great at creating space with his behind and knowing where the ball will go.   I rarely see him box out.  Nor will you see pros do it a lot, like it is coached at the lower levels of basketball.

Bird would box out but a lot of his rebounds where more due to being in the right place at the right time.   This explains some of his outstanding tips.   

[BballTim]

I think this thread came around to the essential point.  Bird never "went for" triple doubles or any other stat because doing so was not essential to winning.  I don't know first hand what was going on in the game when Big O got his season triple-double but if a player did it today, it would be at the expense of his team, not the benefit of his team.  A triple-double here and there, sure, that can happen while staying in the flow of the game or maybe only stat grabbing a little.  To do it for a season would require stat grabbing at an unnatural level; meaning not in the natural flow of winning basketball.

Rondo would benefit the team more if he scored more and rebounded less.  The team would probably also benefit if assists were more uniformly distributed among all players, not one player getting them all.  I suspect that Rondo understands this and that he will not start "going for" triple doubles for the sake of getting triple doubles.

   I don't think there's any relationship between Rondo's scoring and rebounding. Also, Rondo's getting one of the lowest if not the lowest percentage of the team's assists he's had in the last 5 years this year. The rest of the team is getting about as many assists/game as most teams do minus their starting point guards.

[BballTim]

Nope, only one player has ever done it and that was for one season.  He has three this season out of what twenty or so games.  Not even close.

Larry Bird, Magic nor LBJ did not or could not do it.  Do you really think RR can?

Out of the three guys you've listed, Magic is the only one who ever tried, Lebron is a pathetic rebounder for a guy of his size and athletic ability, and I don't believe that Bird even considered it, but if there was anyone who could have done so, it would be Larry, imo, even in the last two years of his career, when he was even more of a playmaker after DJ had retired and Ainge had been traded, but I somehow sense that #33 wouldn't have been terribly interested in the whole thing, to be honest.  Sure, he could do anything and everything out there by himself, but he always did so within the framework of the team, as Bill Walton said.  I don't know, but I do think that Rondo could.  He doesn't have to get a triple double every game, anyway - he just needs to average a triple double, if that makes any sense.  In one game, he could score 12 points, grab 8 rebounds, and dish out 11 assists, and in the other, he could score 8 points, grab 12 rebounds, and hand out 9 assists.

I actually remember Bird saying he COULD have averaged a triple double one season if he tried

  There was one time where Magic (and possibly someone else) was getting a lot of triple doubles and Bird wasn't and the reporters kept bringing it up. The Celts had a 6 game road trip and Bird put up 4 triple doubles in those games (or something close to that) and told people he could get them whenever he wanted.

Not to besmirch the Legend too much, but I'm sure we've all met someone that's offered a variation of "could've XYZ'd if I was trying," particularly when they don't actually perform to expectations.

  It's one thing to say "I could have done XYZ if I was trying to", it's another to do it 4 times in 6 games and then say "I could do regularly it if I was trying to".

[Vermont Green]

I think this thread came around to the essential point.  Bird never "went for" triple doubles or any other stat because doing so was not essential to winning.  I don't know first hand what was going on in the game when Big O got his season triple-double but if a player did it today, it would be at the expense of his team, not the benefit of his team.  A triple-double here and there, sure, that can happen while staying in the flow of the game or maybe only stat grabbing a little.  To do it for a season would require stat grabbing at an unnatural level; meaning not in the natural flow of winning basketball.

Rondo would benefit the team more if he scored more and rebounded less.  The team would probably also benefit if assists were more uniformly distributed among all players, not one player getting them all.  I suspect that Rondo understands this and that he will not start "going for" triple doubles for the sake of getting triple doubles.

Busy, but I don't know if I agree with the first two sentences in the second paragraph of this post.

I recognize that everyone does not see it this way.  The way I see it is the best players are able to do what the team needs at a given time.  Pass when it makes sense to pass, score when it makes sense or is needed to score, go get that key rebound when a key rebound is needed (Pierce was great at timely rebounding).  I contend the team would be better if Rondo was scoring more and rebounding less (if it was that simple to wave a wand and make that trade off).

The assist thing is more nuanced.  I liken it to a team that has one player who dominates all the scoring such as the Iverson era 76ers.  That is simply not as good as having more balanced scoring.  The Iverson teams would have benefited if Iverson score less (or forced the scoring issue less) and distributed more to get other players involved.  Iverson might score less but the team would be expected to score more or more efficiently.

I think the Celtics or any team is better if the ball is moving and assists come from all directions.  Team assists can go up when Rondo assists go down (it has happened in the past when Rondo was injured).  If Rondo gets 15 assists and it is all in the natural flow of the game, that can be fine but it normally doesn't go that way.  To get such a high number of individual assists usually is at the expense of overall ball movement and team assist opportunities.  I think Rondo has been great this year in this regard, better than in the past, but I still contend that the team would be better (win more) if Rondo got less assists and more points.

[kozlodoev]

I don't think boxing out is a strategic decision, it's a fundamental rebounding skill. Zeller and Olynyk are pretty good with it.

And yet neither are good rebounders!

It is a fundamental skill if your unathletic and in grade school.   Athletes can just go up and get it.   Russell used his length and jumping more than boxing out.  Even athletes will seal and zip towards the ball but they are not boxing out purists.   Rodman did not always box out because the best rebounders know where the ball is coming and move towards it.   Sully is great at creating space with his behind and knowing where the ball will go.   I rarely see him box out.  Nor will you see pros do it a lot, like it is coached at the lower levels of basketball.

Bird would box out but a lot of his rebounds where more due to being in the right place at the right time.   This explains some of his outstanding tips.

Quick, someone tell Tommy that he's been coaching grade school rebounding skills.