Author Topic: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense  (Read 25253 times)

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Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2014, 02:03:28 PM »

Offline BballTim

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.


Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2014, 02:40:33 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2014, 02:47:50 PM »

Offline Chris22

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Rajon Rondo's updated fourth-quarter stat line this season: 108 minutes, 8-of-33 shooting (team-worst 24.2 percent), 32 assists, 13 turnovers, 5 blocked attempts, minus-50 in plus/minus.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2014, 02:50:08 PM »

Offline BballTim

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)

  Finally, more people are starting to wake up to the only reliable method of evaluating nba players. Kudos on seeing the light.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2014, 03:08:08 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)

  Finally, more people are starting to wake up to the only reliable method of evaluating nba players. Kudos on seeing the light.

I'm having a crisis of faith, though: Phil Pressey, Rondo's de facto replacement, only has a PER of 7.5, which would make him the 67th best point guard in the league. I don't know what to do.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2014, 03:23:58 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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How long have I been saying that JJ Barea is better than John Wall?!

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2014, 03:36:51 PM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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You can say what you want about PER but that list is a perfect illustration of why Rondo is so polarizing.

Take the primary categories on the list: TS%, USG, AST, TO, ORR and DRR.

Among starters Rondo is either first in the league (AST, ORR, DRR) or last in the league (TS%) in most categories. You could add FT% as something he's last in, I'm sure.


Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2014, 03:39:33 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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You can say what you want about PER but that list is a perfect illustration of why Rondo is so polarizing.

Take the primary categories on the list: TS%, USG, AST, TO, ORR and DRR.

Among starters Rondo is either first in the league (AST, ORR, DRR) or last in the league (TS%) in most categories. You could add FT% as something he's last in, I'm sure.

Sure, but that would require the ability to recognize that singular stats are fairly meaningless, especially when you don't look at any of the potential causes or scenarios that might cause them to arise, let alone how team composition or lineups might artificially inflate or deflate them.


So, smart guy, thanks for your analysis, but I think I'll stick with my infallible list. ;D
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2014, 04:19:09 PM »

Offline deekhead

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You can say what you want about PER but that list is a perfect illustration of why Rondo is so polarizing.

Take the primary categories on the list: TS%, USG, AST, TO, ORR and DRR.

Among starters Rondo is either first in the league (AST, ORR, DRR) or last in the league (TS%) in most categories. You could add FT% as something he's last in, I'm sure.

And he all too frequently goes from best player on the team.... to worst player on the team... in the blink of an eye when the game gets down to brass tacks.

deek

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2014, 04:46:25 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Its obvious and widely acknowledged, Rondo is a "Matador" defender - he moves his cape when the opponent goes by him.

I've been seeing this too. Lowry torches us. Schroeder(!!) torches us. The Bulls backup torches us.

Rondo has about a dozen elite defensive games in him per regular season. Night in night out he's just not up for it, and his "jets" may not be what they once were.
Honestly penetrating point guards have exposed our bigs more than our guard rotation.

Rondo's been up and down, but largely I've been okay with his defense as a whole. When he doesn't get over a pick even 3 feet above the three point line too often its a straight line drive to the rim with no help or resistance from the defense.

This^

We are mainly getting burned by the pick & roll.

Pick & roll defense is a team effort that keys off what the defensive big does.   THAT is where we are failing miserably.   I'll give a bone to the bigs a little bit in that just as often it is poor reads by the weak side wing defenders -- especially off our bench.  I've spotted Thornton and Turner constantly getting caught looking at the play instead of rotating in to help if the big has to switch or trap or worse, getting caught doing nothing while their man sets up wide open in the corner.

It's a fallacy to think that guards in today's NBA can simply be faced up and kept outside indefinitely.  The hand check rule changes make it near impossible.  So defense against penetration has got to be done as a team.

I find a lot of the 'analysis' here to be a bit premature, given it doesn't seem to take into context the strength of schedule so far.   The Celtics have played just a brutal schedule so far in these first 15 games.  They've had the 4th toughest strength of schedule and 10 of the games have been against teams in the top half of the SRS rankings which rates teams based on margin of victory and SOS.  In fact, they've played 5 of the top 6 teams.   They have played only two teams in the bottom 10 and beat both of them.  So all we can say so far is they can't beat the top teams and the've beaten the only two weak teams they've played.

We know they are not a top team.  But we don't know for sure yet whether they are a crappy team or simply an average team.

If the Celtics are an average team, then playing against the 4th toughest schedule, you would expect them to have, typically, the 4th worst statistics in most categories.  Sometimes THE worst.  Sometimes just not so good.   But over all, near the bottom.  That wouldn't mean they were one of the worst teams.  They'd still be average.   But a lot of their statistical measures should suck, given that scenario.   And so far, that's pretty much the case for the Celtics.  A lot of their measures put them down at the bottom, especially on defense, but also in some key offensive categories (such as 3PT shooting). 

Now, if they truly ARE an average team, as they start to play more 'weak' teams further along the schedule, the team's various statistical measures should start to climb the rankings.

The point is, by extension, a lot of this holds true when looking at individual statistics.  Many individual statistics are really heavily dependent on either teammates or opponents or both.    Such numbers for an individual playing on a team against a very tough opponent schedule are going to be negatively impacted compared to the same individual playing on a team against a very easy schedule.

I'd suggest waiting until we get through December (29 games) before trying to make too definitive of judgements.

In December, starting tonight, the schedule flips over dramatically.  We'll get to play all 7 of the 7 worst teams as ranked by SRS.   And only a few teams that are ranked as 'strong'.

If we go through that and still continue to lose most of those games, we are probably and truly a crappy team.   Lottery balls, here we come!

If on the other hand get through them and win most of them, then we are probably an average team, somewhere between 11-20.   Ironically, that might get us into the playoffs in the East.

Side prediction:  Smart will be returning tonight, just in time to be our savior as we start playing a MUCH easier schedule.   My prediction is that certain posters will be going wild with assertions of how his 'leadership' and 'defensive fire' are going to be the real reasons why we are winning more the next 4 weeks.   So of course, trade Rondo.   ::)
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2014, 04:49:38 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)

More proof that PER is one of the most useless stats.

Not completely useless.   Not the MOST useless.   But one of the most useless.
NBA Officiating - Corrupt?  Incompetent?  Which is worse?  Does it matter?  It sucks.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2014, 05:01:27 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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Its obvious and widely acknowledged, Rondo is a "Matador" defender - he moves his cape when the opponent goes by him.

I've been seeing this too. Lowry torches us. Schroeder(!!) torches us. The Bulls backup torches us.

Rondo has about a dozen elite defensive games in him per regular season. Night in night out he's just not up for it, and his "jets" may not be what they once were.
Honestly penetrating point guards have exposed our bigs more than our guard rotation.

Rondo's been up and down, but largely I've been okay with his defense as a whole. When he doesn't get over a pick even 3 feet above the three point line too often its a straight line drive to the rim with no help or resistance from the defense.

This^

We are mainly getting burned by the pick & roll.

Pick & roll defense is a team effort that keys off what the defensive big does.   THAT is where we are failing miserably.   I'll give a bone to the bigs a little bit in that just as often it is poor reads by the weak side wing defenders -- especially off our bench.  I've spotted Thornton and Turner constantly getting caught looking at the play instead of rotating in to help if the big has to switch or trap or worse, getting caught doing nothing while their man sets up wide open in the corner.

It's a fallacy to think that guards in today's NBA can simply be faced up and kept outside indefinitely.  The hand check rule changes make it near impossible.  So defense against penetration has got to be done as a team.

I find a lot of the 'analysis' here to be a bit premature, given it doesn't seem to take into context the strength of schedule so far.   The Celtics have played just a brutal schedule so far in these first 15 games.  They've had the 4th toughest strength of schedule and 10 of the games have been against teams in the top half of the SRS rankings which rates teams based on margin of victory and SOS.  In fact, they've played 5 of the top 6 teams.   They have played only two teams in the bottom 10 and beat both of them.  So all we can say so far is they can't beat the top teams and the've beaten the only two weak teams they've played.

We know they are not a top team.  But we don't know for sure yet whether they are a crappy team or simply an average team.

If the Celtics are an average team, then playing against the 4th toughest schedule, you would expect them to have, typically, the 4th worst statistics in most categories.  Sometimes THE worst.  Sometimes just not so good.   But over all, near the bottom.  That wouldn't mean they were one of the worst teams.  They'd still be average.   But a lot of their statistical measures should suck, given that scenario.   And so far, that's pretty much the case for the Celtics.  A lot of their measures put them down at the bottom, especially on defense, but also in some key offensive categories (such as 3PT shooting). 

Now, if they truly ARE an average team, as they start to play more 'weak' teams further along the schedule, the team's various statistical measures should start to climb the rankings.

The point is, by extension, a lot of this holds true when looking at individual statistics.  Many individual statistics are really heavily dependent on either teammates or opponents or both.    Such numbers for an individual playing on a team against a very tough opponent schedule are going to be negatively impacted compared to the same individual playing on a team against a very easy schedule.

I'd suggest waiting until we get through December (29 games) before trying to make too definitive of judgements.

In December, starting tonight, the schedule flips over dramatically.  We'll get to play all 7 of the 7 worst teams as ranked by SRS.   And only a few teams that are ranked as 'strong'.

If we go through that and still continue to lose most of those games, we are probably and truly a crappy team.   Lottery balls, here we come!

If on the other hand get through them and win most of them, then we are probably an average team, somewhere between 11-20.   Ironically, that might get us into the playoffs in the East.

Side prediction:  Smart will be returning tonight, just in time to be our savior as we start playing a MUCH easier schedule.   My prediction is that certain posters will be going wild with assertions of how his 'leadership' and 'defensive fire' are going to be the real reasons why we are winning more the next 4 weeks.   So of course, trade Rondo.   ::)

TP for a very smart, thoughtful post. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2014, 05:06:09 PM »

Offline Chris22

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How long have I been saying that JJ Barea is better than John Wall?!

Barea has to be the most frustrating player in the NBA.

You can't believe he can do the things he is doing.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2014, 05:09:39 PM »

Offline Chris22

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)

More proof that PER is one of the most useless stats.

Not completely useless.   Not the MOST useless.   But one of the most useless.

It's a pretty good stat. The best players are always at the top of the PER.

Re: Chris Forsberg on Rondo's defense
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2014, 05:10:27 PM »

Offline PickNRoll

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As contrary to popular belief as this observation is going to look to many, I have actually been quite impressed with Rondo's defense since the Phoenix game.

Both Rondo and Bradley got embarrassed in that game by Dragic and Bledsoe.  It's looked to me like they have both stepped up their play on that end of the floor since and have been playing very good defense.

It hasn't translated into wins against some of the best teams in the league, but I'm looking for our team to keep fighting and break the seal on winning a basketball game soon enough.

  I think, specifically, you could look to the first two quarters of that game. In the first quarter his defense was pretty bad against whoever he was guarding (probably Dragic). In the second quarter he was covering Thomas and pretty much shut him down. His play's definitely been better since then.

This doesn't get enough hype: I have it on good authority that IT the fourth best point guard in the entire NBA.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
 ::)

More proof that PER is one of the most useless stats.

Not completely useless.   Not the MOST useless.   But one of the most useless.
It's great for trivia though!

Who has the highest career PER?:

A. Dennis Rodman
B. Christian Laettner
C. Dee Brown

Admit it, you have no idea!  :)