Author Topic: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking  (Read 17780 times)

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Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2014, 10:12:45 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty.

  You don't have any idea whether the current Sixers squad will ever be capable of making the playoffs.

I would certainly take that chance on dynasty level upside than run out Celtics rosters such as 2011-2012 where they were a legit treadmill squad.

  You generally need an all-time great and/or multiple HOFers to have a shot at a dynasty. Who on Philly do you think fits that bill?

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2014, 10:12:59 AM »

Offline MBunge

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Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty.

  You don't have any idea whether the current Sixers squad will ever be capable of making the playoffs.

I would certainly take that chance on dynasty level upside than run out Celtics rosters such as 2011-2012 where they were a legit treadmill squad.

That team lost in the Eastern Conference Finals.  What are you talking about?

Mike

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2014, 10:23:19 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I think you could make the argument that the Celtics don't get past the Bulls that year, but I agree -- the idea that the '11-'12 C's were a treadmill team is basically empty rhetoric.
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2014, 10:37:31 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Well, the Sixers won 19 games last year, and despite adding one of their "championship pieces" in Noel, they seem like a pretty good bet to win even less this season.  That sounds kinda treadmilly to me.  But upside comes cheap these days I guess.

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2014, 10:45:58 AM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Players may not tank but is it really hard to believe players don't play as well as they could because they know they can't win? Players play harder when there is something to win (like in the playoffs). It's hard to ask players to go out and give their all when they are that young, already paid millions, on a crappy team. Some will still give max effort because they are that way no matter what but you can't tell me a lot of players don't coast on natural ability b/c they know their team sucks. These are "kids" we are talking about.

A number of these guys on the Sixers are second rounders and undrafted players with largely nonguaranteed contracts for the minimum.  They literally cannot afford to not play with full effort.


I get that but I'm talking as a whole, it's rare to see a team full of DL players, lots of players coast on bad teams.

I would suspect that apathy would be more of an issue with accomplished vets more so than rookies looking to make a name for themselves and establish earning potential for the future.  If anything, I would think the issue with rookies on bad teams is that they'd try too hard to prove themselves.


Maybe. If we weren't talking about a bunch of guys who came from little to no money and now are rich, and young. That's partially why people play better as they get older, a lot of their mentalities change and they mature. They learn what it takes to actually win in the NBA.

Thing is that as a rookie, you're limited with the money you can make.  Sure, $1 million is a lot of money if you're coming from relatively modest upbringings, but that's a pittance as an NBA player.  I really can't think of many notable cases of a guy on a rookie deal just resting on his laurels once he was drafted.  I can recall far more instances of veteran players working super hard in a contract year, getting a great contract, and then checking out.

So you have never heard of young players who play better for their second contracts? People quit jobs they ENJOY when they hit the lotto of just 1m or less, what makes you think NBA players are different (different species or something)? They may not quit but they are rich, young, and a lot of times immature... I have no doubt that a lot of them don't work or play as hard as they can when they KNOW they can't win, as I said they don't always do it when they play for good teams. I just don't understand why you think being young/rookie means you are going to play and work hard. These kids are worried about spoiling friends and family, spending like ballers, and partying. Of course not all but I'd bet a large majority do.

Be honest, you are young, rich for the first time, get all the women you want (no matter how good you are), and not many people tell you no. Are you worried about being the best and playing hard all the time on one of the worst teams in history/bad team or are you coasting more on your abilities and enjoying life?

You could be right that they don't coast on bad teams but I just don't believe it.

I think there are players, and non players, who coast from time to time. That's sort of a given, unless you're Kenneth Faried or something. But I do think that MCW made a solid point about how hard it takes to work to get to the NBA, and a lot of people who are good enough mentally and physically to get in wouldn't automatically default to 'eff it, I'm rich."

Exactly this, especially since they're only rich relative to the common person; they're basically a step above poor compared to their veteran counterparts, which I feel serves as more than enough motivation in most cases.

On another note, I think all of the "LOSING CULTURE" rhetoric is grossly overstated, too.  Talented players can overcome bad situations.  Kevin Love, Steph Curry, John Wall -- all examples of guys not in that KD/Anthony Davis-echelon of talent who endured multiple losing seasons in their first few years, but have gone on to become successful players in their own rights.  Hell, the only reason Kevin Love is not a Timberwolf this season is because David Khan and Glen Taylor are idiots and didn't offer him the five year contract extension he was seeking.

I doubt Brook Lopez really cares about the fact that his Nets team won 12 games out of 82 a couple of seasons ago.  It may have had a profound impact on a guy like CDR, but he's a role player and entirely replaceable.  Philly is trying to find those Lopez-type of players.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 10:51:41 AM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2014, 11:25:24 AM »

Offline MBunge

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On another note, I think all of the "LOSING CULTURE" rhetoric is grossly overstated, too.  Talented players can overcome bad situations.  Kevin Love, Steph Curry, John Wall -- all examples of guys not in that KD/Anthony Davis-echelon of talent who endured multiple losing seasons in their first few years, but have gone on to become successful players in their own rights.  Hell, the only reason Kevin Love is not a Timberwolf this season is because David Khan and Glen Taylor are idiots and didn't offer him the five year contract extension he was seeking.

I doubt Brook Lopez really cares about the fact that his Nets team won 12 games out of 82 a couple of seasons ago.  It may have had a profound impact on a guy like CDR, but he's a role player and entirely replaceable.  Philly is trying to find those Lopez-type of players.

Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way.  And I don't think you really want to throw the Nets or the T-Wolves up as examples that "losing cultures" don't matter.  Did you SEE the Nets get humiliated in the playoffs two seasons ago?

And I believe the four players you just mentioned have a total of 5 winning seasons on their resume.

Mike

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2014, 11:34:31 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Piggybacking on Mike's point -- because apparently that's all I'm going to do in this thread -- there's a reason Wall's Wizards became successful once they got rid of Nick Young and JaVale McGee, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the front office purged the team of the players who were contributing to the losing culture. The Nets are a good example too, I don't think I've ever seen a professional team care less in the post season in any sport, ever.

On the other hand, I do think it's very easy to fall into that trap of blaming a losing culture when, in fact, the team is just losing.
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2014, 12:05:25 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way. 

The Nets were starting Josh Boone and Travis Outlaw, while the Wolves started grand bust extraordinaire Darko Milicic and somehow they're being lauded as "trying to get better the normal way" as compared to the Sixers. el oh el

Quote
And I don't think you really want to throw the Nets or the T-Wolves up as examples that "losing cultures" don't matter.  Did you SEE the Nets get humiliated in the playoffs two seasons ago?

You mean the Nets team that lost to the Bulls?  The same Nets team that had a grand total of two players retained from that 12-70 team, one of whom was purely retained as future trade bait?  The same Nets team that prominently featured two guys in Deron Williams - formerly coached by Jerry Sloan - and Joe Johnson, both of whom had made multiple playoff appearances, including a Western Conference Finals appearance by Williams?

... yeah, I saw that team lose in the playoffs.  And I have not the slightest idea how this relates to anything I said about losing cultures since, you know, two-thirds of that team's core came from "winning" cultures.

Quote
And I believe the four players you just mentioned have a total of 5 winning seasons on their resume.

... and, save for Kevin Love, all of those winning seasons occurred just this past year, so... ?

Unless you're ignoring the fact that these guys have clearly improved over the years and that has translated to on-court success for their teams, I'm not sure why this matters.  They're winning now.

Piggybacking on Mike's point -- because apparently that's all I'm going to do in this thread -- there's a reason Wall's Wizards became successful once they got rid of Nick Young and JaVale McGee, and I think it has a lot to do with the fact that the front office purged the team of the players who were contributing to the losing culture.  The Nets are a good example too, I don't think I've ever seen a professional team care less in the post season in any sport, ever.

On the other hand, I do think it's very easy to fall into that trap of blaming a losing culture when, in fact, the team is just losing.

That's my point, though - losing in itself does not a losing culture make; having a terrible developmental environment plays a significant role in that and that's where the front office has to make the proper moves to help their players cope with their situation and identify those who are toxic to the team's long-term success.  Cleveland was actually fostering a losing culture before LeBron blessed them with his return; Washington was making great strides in cleaning up their locker room.  Both teams lost, but it'd be absurd to suggest they were both harboring "losing cultures."

On the flip side, the Nets laid an egg in that 2013 playoffs despite having seasoned veterans.  Their players' backgrounds of playing for multiple winning teams didn't matter in the slightest.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 12:13:04 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2014, 12:07:59 PM »

Offline Moranis

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On another note, I think all of the "LOSING CULTURE" rhetoric is grossly overstated, too.  Talented players can overcome bad situations.  Kevin Love, Steph Curry, John Wall -- all examples of guys not in that KD/Anthony Davis-echelon of talent who endured multiple losing seasons in their first few years, but have gone on to become successful players in their own rights.  Hell, the only reason Kevin Love is not a Timberwolf this season is because David Khan and Glen Taylor are idiots and didn't offer him the five year contract extension he was seeking.

I doubt Brook Lopez really cares about the fact that his Nets team won 12 games out of 82 a couple of seasons ago.  It may have had a profound impact on a guy like CDR, but he's a role player and entirely replaceable.  Philly is trying to find those Lopez-type of players.

Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way.  And I don't think you really want to throw the Nets or the T-Wolves up as examples that "losing cultures" don't matter.  Did you SEE the Nets get humiliated in the playoffs two seasons ago?

And I believe the four players you just mentioned have a total of 5 winning seasons on their resume.

Mike
I posted in another thread that the Sonics/Thunder did pretty much exactly what Philly did (I included all of the moves the team made), the difference of course is Durant, Green, Westbrook, and Harden (and even Ibaka to a lesser degree) were all pretty good players as rookies so they were able to be a 50 win team by Durant's 3rd year (Harden's rookie year).  But there was a 3 year period where the Sonics basically sold off for whatever they could get every single veteran on the team.  The same thing Philly has done for the last 15 months or so. 
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Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2014, 01:08:08 PM »

Offline MBunge

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Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way. 

The Nets were starting Josh Boone and Travis Outlaw, while the Wolves started grand bust extraordinaire Darko Milicic and somehow they're being lauded as "trying to get better the normal way" as compared to the Sixers. el oh el


Yeah, I've pretty much gotten to the point where I no longer waste time trying to argue with people who move the goals posts like this.  Those teams sucked.  Making bad decisions is one of the reasons those teams sucked.  Philly isn't trying to win and just making bad decisions.  Philly is TRYING TO LOSE and is making decisions that, if they work, will mean they will actually lose.  At this point, if Philly made a mistake it would be in signing a player that would help them win.

If you can't grasp that distinction, what's the point.

Mike

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2014, 01:26:30 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way. 

The Nets were starting Josh Boone and Travis Outlaw, while the Wolves started grand bust extraordinaire Darko Milicic and somehow they're being lauded as "trying to get better the normal way" as compared to the Sixers. el oh el


Yeah, I've pretty much gotten to the point where I no longer waste time trying to argue with people who move the goals posts like this.  Those teams sucked.  Making bad decisions is one of the reasons those teams sucked.  Philly isn't trying to win and just making bad decisions.  Philly is TRYING TO LOSE and is making decisions that, if they work, will mean they will actually lose.  At this point, if Philly made a mistake it would be in signing a player that would help them win.

If you can't grasp that distinction, what's the point.

Mike

Not my fault you're too obstinate in beating this stupid "LOL THE SIXERS ARE ACTIVELY TRYING TO LOSE" drum.  They're trying to find young players and overlooked prospects who can stick in this league; losing will naturally come with that.  Losing isn't the end goal, it's just the accepted outcome.

But that is merely an insignificant detail.  Don't let reality distract you from your sensationalist hot takes.  Philly is deliberately trying to lose, they sat Noel and MCW early in the season to aid in the tank, they traded Hawes, Turner, and Young purely because they were helping them win too many games, etc., etc.

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2014, 01:29:37 PM »

Offline MBunge

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On another note, I think all of the "LOSING CULTURE" rhetoric is grossly overstated, too.  Talented players can overcome bad situations.  Kevin Love, Steph Curry, John Wall -- all examples of guys not in that KD/Anthony Davis-echelon of talent who endured multiple losing seasons in their first few years, but have gone on to become successful players in their own rights.  Hell, the only reason Kevin Love is not a Timberwolf this season is because David Khan and Glen Taylor are idiots and didn't offer him the five year contract extension he was seeking.

I doubt Brook Lopez really cares about the fact that his Nets team won 12 games out of 82 a couple of seasons ago.  It may have had a profound impact on a guy like CDR, but he's a role player and entirely replaceable.  Philly is trying to find those Lopez-type of players.

Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way.  And I don't think you really want to throw the Nets or the T-Wolves up as examples that "losing cultures" don't matter.  Did you SEE the Nets get humiliated in the playoffs two seasons ago?

And I believe the four players you just mentioned have a total of 5 winning seasons on their resume.

Mike
I posted in another thread that the Sonics/Thunder did pretty much exactly what Philly did

No. they didn't.

1.  When they got Durant in the draft it was after winning 31 games, getting them the 5th worst record in the league and only a .097% chance of getting the 2nd pick and Durant.  So getting Durant was absolutely NOT part of any tanking plan.

2.  After getting Durant, they did blow it up.  No question about it.  But even though they ended up with the 2nd worst record in the league, they only got the 4th pick in the draft.

3.  After getting Westbrook, they didn't trade away Nick Collison for nothing, which would be the equivalent of what Philly did with Thaddeus Young.

You can make anything seem similar to anything if you just ignore all the important differences between them.

Mike

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2014, 01:40:43 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Every guy you just mentioned, though, was part of a team trying to get better the normal way. 

The Nets were starting Josh Boone and Travis Outlaw, while the Wolves started grand bust extraordinaire Darko Milicic and somehow they're being lauded as "trying to get better the normal way" as compared to the Sixers. el oh el


Yeah, I've pretty much gotten to the point where I no longer waste time trying to argue with people who move the goals posts like this.  Those teams sucked.  Making bad decisions is one of the reasons those teams sucked.  Philly isn't trying to win and just making bad decisions.  Philly is TRYING TO LOSE and is making decisions that, if they work, will mean they will actually lose.  At this point, if Philly made a mistake it would be in signing a player that would help them win.

If you can't grasp that distinction, what's the point.

Mike

Not my fault you're too obstinate in beating this stupid "LOL THE SIXERS ARE ACTIVELY TRYING TO LOSE" drum.  They're trying to find young players and overlooked prospects who can stick in this league; losing will naturally come with that.  Losing isn't the end goal, it's just the accepted outcome.

But that is merely an insignificant detail.  Don't let reality distract you from your sensationalist hot takes.  Philly is deliberately trying to lose, they sat Noel and MCW early in the season to aid in the tank, they traded Hawes, Turner, and Young purely because they were helping them win too many games, etc., etc.

Is there a term for building a strawman and then having it make hot sports takes on someone else's behalf?  Because you're being a lot more hyperbolic and sensationalistic in characterizing the posters you're arguing with than anything they're actually saying. 

No offense, I think you're a good poster in general for whatever that's worth, but you seem to be getting really unnecessarily heated about this.  Are you a Sixers fan?  I only ask because you've said you aren't a Celtics fan and you seem very invested in their strategy.

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2014, 01:53:58 PM »

Offline Endless Paradise

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Is there a term for building a strawman and then having it make hot sports takes on someone else's behalf?  Because you're being a lot more hyperbolic and sensationalistic in characterizing the posters you're arguing with than anything they're actually saying.

Every single one of those examples I cited are actual arguments he's made in the past to support his assertion that Philly is deliberately trying to lose.  None of it is hyperbolic; it's stuff he's said.  From Noel being held out just to tank to the Sixers being concerned with Turner, Hawes, and Young being "too good," it's all stuff he's pointed out as proof that the Sixers are actively pursuing losses.

Quote
No offense, I think you're a good poster in general for whatever that's worth, but you seem to be getting really unnecessarily heated about this.  Are you a Sixers fan?  I only ask because you've said you aren't a Celtics fan and you seem very invested in their strategy.

No, I'm not a Sixers fan, I just think it's stupid to pretend that what they're doing is fundamentally different than what any other rebuilding team is doing.  "These other teams were rebuilding the RIGHT way, not like Philly."  These other teams made the exact same moves as Philly, it was just cloaked in the fact that they kept a few more veterans on their rosters.

Trading veteran players for draft picks?  Been done since forever.
Acquiring unwanted contracts because you get assets as compensation?  Been done since forever.
Trading away impending free agents?  Been done since forever.
Actively focusing on development in favor of winning games by giving young, unproven players a lot of playing time?  Been done since forever.

The only real difference between Philly and say, Orlando immediately following the Dwight trade is that Orlando had more veterans on their roster... many of whom weren't even playing for much of the season and many of whom were acquired in the Dwight trade because their contracts were needed to make the transaction work.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 02:19:19 PM by Endless Paradise »

Re: Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking
« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2014, 02:07:50 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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I agree that the only reason the Sixers are getting so much widespread ire is because they're blatantly going about what everyone else has been doing forever. That's absolutely true.
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