Michael Carter-Williams: Don't Talk to Me About Tanking

[Vox_Populi]

Bob Cooney @BobCooney76
MCW didn't get back on D. Brown yelled at him to get back then went to talk to him during stoppage. MCW appeared to point to scoreboard

https://twitter.com/BobCooney76/status/533105416583278592

Such is life.

[MBunge]

MCW can talk all he wants about hating to lose, but how bad can you feel after loss 60?  How consumed with winning will he be when he's about 30-132 after his first two years in the league?  There comes a point where you either disengage or you snap.

Mike

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Players may not tank but is it really hard to believe players don't play as well as they could because they know they can't win? Players play harder when there is something to win (like in the playoffs). It's hard to ask players to go out and give their all when they are that young, already paid millions, on a crappy team. Some will still give max effort because they are that way no matter what but you can't tell me a lot of players don't coast on natural ability b/c they know their team sucks. These are "kids" we are talking about.

A number of these guys on the Sixers are second rounders and undrafted players with largely nonguaranteed contracts for the minimum.  They literally cannot afford to not play with full effort.

I get that but I'm talking as a whole, it's rare to see a team full of DL players, lots of players coast on bad teams.

I would suspect that apathy would be more of an issue with accomplished vets more so than rookies looking to make a name for themselves and establish earning potential for the future.  If anything, I would think the issue with rookies on bad teams is that they'd try too hard to prove themselves.

Maybe. If we weren't talking about a bunch of guys who came from little to no money and now are rich, and young. That's partially why people play better as they get older, a lot of their mentalities change and they mature. They learn what it takes to actually win in the NBA.

Thing is that as a rookie, you're limited with the money you can make.  Sure, $1 million is a lot of money if you're coming from relatively modest upbringings, but that's a pittance as an NBA player.  I really can't think of many notable cases of a guy on a rookie deal just resting on his laurels once he was drafted.  I can recall far more instances of veteran players working super hard in a contract year, getting a great contract, and then checking out.

So you have never heard of young players who play better for their second contracts? People quit jobs they ENJOY when they hit the lotto of just 1m or less, what makes you think NBA players are different (different species or something)? They may not quit but they are rich, young, and a lot of times immature... I have no doubt that a lot of them don't work or play as hard as they can when they KNOW they can't win, as I said they don't always do it when they play for good teams. I just don't understand why you think being young/rookie means you are going to play and work hard. These kids are worried about spoiling friends and family, spending like ballers, and partying. Of course not all but I'd bet a large majority do.

Be honest, you are young, rich for the first time, get all the women you want (no matter how good you are), and not many people tell you no. Are you worried about being the best and playing hard all the time on one of the worst teams in history/bad team or are you coasting more on your abilities and enjoying life?

You could be right that they don't coast on bad teams but I just don't believe it.

[guava_wrench]

MCW sounds delusional.  Nobody thinks players tank.  Teams tank by making moves to ensure the players they put on the floor aren't as good as the other team.

MCW might not win 60 games in his first THREE SEASONS in the NBA.  If his team isn't tanking, he must really suck.

Mike

A lot of people don't think that deeply about it. You and I (and many others) might understand that all of these guys are playing for their careers and most have a hard time dealing with losing. But a lot of fans don't think that deeply.

I think a lot of fans also can't differentiate between a team not trying and a team that knows they are out of a game and can't maintain intensity. If you are motivated by winning and helping your team, you are probably going to find it hard to give serious energy when the team is down 30 at the end of the 3rd. If you are all about your own stats, it is probably easier to play hard in a blowout.

[Celtics4ever]

Carter-Williams missed the first seven games of the season, so however the 76ers were playing isn't on him. But he made his season debut tonight against the Mavericks, and it was a NSFW slaughter. They lost by 53 points, the worst loss the league has seen since 2011—before that 2001—and tied for the 19th worst loss ever (via Basketball-Reference). They were down 44 at half, and down 45-10 just two minutes into the second quarter. They had an assist-to-turnover ratio of .33:1.

http://deadspin.com/michael-carter-williams-professed-non-tanker-tanks-1658698119

What a joke.

[obnoxiousmime]

Carter-Williams missed the first seven games of the season, so however the 76ers were playing isn't on him. But he made his season debut tonight against the Mavericks, and it was a NSFW slaughter. They lost by 53 points, the worst loss the league has seen since 2011—before that 2001—and tied for the 19th worst loss ever (via Basketball-Reference). They were down 44 at half, and down 45-10 just two minutes into the second quarter. They had an assist-to-turnover ratio of .33:1.

http://deadspin.com/michael-carter-williams-professed-non-tanker-tanks-1658698119

What a joke.

I wouldn't be so hard on Carter-Williams or any of the players for their reactions, however misinformed. Look at it from this perspective: If tanking is players purposefully not trying their best,  it at least means they were not built to be an all-time loser. What I mean is, when the media constantly claims the team was not built to be competitive it is an indirect insult that the players on the roster are not talented enough. Sure, some are careful to mention that the primary issue is that they are too young and don't actually lack talent, but in the frenzy of the mainstream media that disclaimer is lost and all they end up hearing is "these guys suck, they're a laughingstock."

It's like in the movie Major League when the manager informed the team they were actually built to lose. Imagine how damaging that can be to a young player's ego and development.

That's why I would cut the players some slack for lashing out against the media. Even if the players themselves are not actually the ones blamed, they are the ones who have to face the music on the court and in the postgame interviews every day, not management. Sam Hinkie can hide in his office and probably wouldn't be recognized on the street most days, but the players aren't so lucky.

[D.o.s.]

Players may not tank but is it really hard to believe players don't play as well as they could because they know they can't win? Players play harder when there is something to win (like in the playoffs). It's hard to ask players to go out and give their all when they are that young, already paid millions, on a crappy team. Some will still give max effort because they are that way no matter what but you can't tell me a lot of players don't coast on natural ability b/c they know their team sucks. These are "kids" we are talking about.

A number of these guys on the Sixers are second rounders and undrafted players with largely nonguaranteed contracts for the minimum.  They literally cannot afford to not play with full effort.

I get that but I'm talking as a whole, it's rare to see a team full of DL players, lots of players coast on bad teams.

I would suspect that apathy would be more of an issue with accomplished vets more so than rookies looking to make a name for themselves and establish earning potential for the future.  If anything, I would think the issue with rookies on bad teams is that they'd try too hard to prove themselves.

Maybe. If we weren't talking about a bunch of guys who came from little to no money and now are rich, and young. That's partially why people play better as they get older, a lot of their mentalities change and they mature. They learn what it takes to actually win in the NBA.

Thing is that as a rookie, you're limited with the money you can make.  Sure, $1 million is a lot of money if you're coming from relatively modest upbringings, but that's a pittance as an NBA player.  I really can't think of many notable cases of a guy on a rookie deal just resting on his laurels once he was drafted.  I can recall far more instances of veteran players working super hard in a contract year, getting a great contract, and then checking out.

So you have never heard of young players who play better for their second contracts? People quit jobs they ENJOY when they hit the lotto of just 1m or less, what makes you think NBA players are different (different species or something)? They may not quit but they are rich, young, and a lot of times immature... I have no doubt that a lot of them don't work or play as hard as they can when they KNOW they can't win, as I said they don't always do it when they play for good teams. I just don't understand why you think being young/rookie means you are going to play and work hard. These kids are worried about spoiling friends and family, spending like ballers, and partying. Of course not all but I'd bet a large majority do.

Be honest, you are young, rich for the first time, get all the women you want (no matter how good you are), and not many people tell you no. Are you worried about being the best and playing hard all the time on one of the worst teams in history/bad team or are you coasting more on your abilities and enjoying life?

You could be right that they don't coast on bad teams but I just don't believe it.

I think there are players, and non players, who coast from time to time. That's sort of a given, unless you're Kenneth Faried or something. But I do think that MCW made a solid point about how hard it takes to work to get to the NBA, and a lot of people who are good enough mentally and physically to get in wouldn't automatically default to 'eff it, I'm rich."

[cman88]

I just fail to see how a losing culture as bad as this is going to somehow come out of it because of their high draft picks and be a championship calibar team.

if anything, this tanking to me is probably hurting the development of some of these players and creating poor habits.

there is losing like the celtics....this is just a travesty.

[MBunge]

there is losing like the celtics....this is just a travesty.

And they didn't have to be this bad.  Philly didn't need to give away Thaddeus Young for bupkis or completely refuse to do anything on the free agent market.  They could have still comfortably been one of the 3 or 4 worst teams in the league, but not look like 0-82 is a real possibility.

Mike

[slamtheking]

It seems to me they took the best player available in Noel last year and the BPsA in Saric and Embiid this year, so what does it matter that they can't/couldn't play their first year? Teams that are good draft and stash Euros all the time, nobody said a team in the lottery wasn't allowed to do that. People want the Sixers to be ashamed of their record and make desperation, short-term moves but they refuse to make that mistake.

Besides, even if Noel or Embiid played their first year the team still would have been horrible, I mean these kids are 19 years old. It wouldn't have had a huge impact on their tanking ability.

People should be upset at the system, not the Sixers for exploiting it. In other words, don't hate the player, hate the game.

I'm learning to embrace it actually.  Philly will be a nice breeding ground for top young players that want to leave to play for better franchises.  Embiid or Noel would be a nice pick up when they hit free agency

Yes, but when will that be? The rules give the advantage to the original drafting team to keep their young players. It's possible a good player will play out his original rookie deal and then sign the qualifying offer to become an unrestricted free agent, but that's rare. The ones who tend to go that route are not the best players, otherwise their original team would have just given them the max without hesitation.

A player like Greg Monroe is in that situation. Is that the kind of free agent you'd be eager to be signing for 12 million +? Is he an impact player?

The NBA wants the original team to have an advantage in keeping their young players. Since players 23-24 years old are still establishing themselves, winning immediately is not necessarily their first priority. They want a max deal first and personal accolades, then they can start worrying about winning titles.

The drafting team may have an advantage in terms of the contract they can offer but if the management style is to create a garbage team, would a very talented young player WANT to stay there?  maybe, it's not impossible to consider that a player may value money over winning.  I'd offer this thought though -- that player is going to receive a contract that will pay them more than they could ever use in their lifetime regardless of whether it's a max deal from the drafting team or another team trying to grab them. 

look at Dallas grabbing Parsons.  Houston wasn't the losing environment Philly is and they still lost him in free agency.  Your example of Monroe--he's going to get that $12 mill you've proposed and probably more in light of what Parsons and Hayward signed, the fact he's a PF/C that can score and the expected jump in the salary cap.

sure the drafting team has the ability to offer a better contract but if Noel and/or Embiid develop into stud players, they'd get a max contract offer from a number of other teams that will be positioning themselves financially to offer that kind of deal.   Philly figures to stink for years -- well into the time when these 2 will be coming off their rookie deals.  Why should they remain with a loser franchise when they can choose to go to a winning environment and still get obnoxiously rich?

[cb8883]

Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty. Something I wish Danny Ainge would sack up and actually do. For markets outside of New York up north tanking is the only way.

[MBunge]

Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty. Something I wish Danny Ainge would sack up and actually do. For markets outside of New York up north tanking is the only way.

You can't really argue with someone who thinks MCW, Noel (5 points, 7 boards and 5 turnovers last night) and two guys who have yet to play a single minute of NBA action = dynasty.

Mike

[BballTim]

Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty.

  You don't have any idea whether the current Sixers squad will ever be capable of making the playoffs.

[cb8883]

Unfortunately for him, his team's owner has done everything possible to create an environment where for the forseeable future the outcomes of his games will be what he hates most. If I was a player I wouldn't want to play for this team. If I saw my team saving money and cutting away players that were my teammates and really solid players because they may actually help us win, that would be so infuriating.

The 76ers are already 0-7 and are about to play all 3 texas teams on the road. They have already lost 5 games by double digits including their most recent one by 32 points.

They are an embarrassment to the NBA and are actively killing interest in professional basketball in a major city and a history of some really great teams.

If we believe MCW is any good what are the chances he is going to want to continue playing for this team when in the last year of his rookie contract they may finally be ready to win 30 games?

This is a very one sided post. Would you rather go for an 8th seed every year or a title? The Sixers are building a dynasty.

  You don't have any idea whether the current Sixers squad will ever be capable of making the playoffs.

I would certainly take that chance on dynasty level upside than run out Celtics rosters such as 2011-2012 where they were a legit treadmill squad.

[D.o.s.]

Would you consider the 2006 Pistons to be a treadmill squad, too?