WYC/Ainge/Stevens speak on Celtics (players, training camp, etc)

[BballTim]

Technically speaking, she didn't go public with the claim, it was put onto youtube by the producers of the show, but then again, you also don't think she's got anything to lose by being outed, as it were, so I suspect that nuance is also going to escape you.

  If anything that nuance is lost on you. It's just off-camera banter between colleagues. It's likely that she's just voicing her opinion and not reporting something she has evidence and the other people know it. The fact that she said "I've been telling everybody that but nobody believes me" points to her friends either thinking it's just her opinion, or her having little to no credibility with her colleagues. I tend to think the former's more likely. I also think that's why she's been so silent on the subject.

  You, on the other hand, seem to feel that her standard for making off-camera remarks to friends is close to the level of her standard for reporting things in a newspaper or magazine and there's no way she'd make a comment like that without a valid source. I disagree. By the way, she has been "publicly outed" (as it were), as everyone involved with the situation has denied that there's any truth whatsoever to Jackie's claim. Why don't you tell me exactly what that revelation has cost her?

The reality is Jackie gains publicity by making the claim that she did, and she's got little or nothing to lose.

That's a tenuous reality you live in, Tim. When people make outlandish/untrue claims it affects their relationships with anyone they'd want to talk to in a professional capacity. On the other hand, the last thing Ainge wants is to be forced into a Love/Anthony situation where everyone is sitting around waiting to see where Rondo goes because they all know he's leaving.

  So, in your reality, reporters don't go public with rumors unless they know that the claims are true? I doubt that's the case. But you're trying to say that Jackie would never make an untrue claim about Rondo telling the team that he wants out of Boston because she would ruin her relationship with the Celts, so you're certain that he's told the team he's leaving? I think your reality is at least as tenuous as mine.

The bolded is a nice bit of a 'you think this ergo you must think this' strawman. I already explained what I thought about the matter, and I'll repeat it here for you, since you obviously missed it the first time:

I think she thinks it's true, and I think that she's not one to be creating something out of nothing just to hear herself talk.

  So if she *thinks* it's true but you're not really sold on that, is the takeaway that she's a poor judge of the reliability of sources?

[D.o.s.]

...And now I'm having one discussion with a poster who's convinced that I'm wrong because she wasn't stating an opinion, and was instead making factual claims, and another discussion with a different poster who's convinced I'm wrong because she wasn't stating factual claims and it just was off camera banter/opinion sharing between colleagues.

How interesting.
 

[BballTim]

...And now I'm having one discussion with a poster who's convinced that I'm wrong because she wasn't stating an opinion, and was instead making factual claims, and another discussion with a different poster who's convinced I'm wrong because she wasn't stating factual claims and it just was off camera banter/opinion sharing between colleagues.

How interesting.
 

  I think that quite a bit of that is because of the arguments that you're making.

[D.o.s.]

Perhaps, but you were both responding to the same statement:

I think she thinks it's true, and I think that she's not one to be creating something out of nothing just to hear herself talk.

Except she didn't say "I think" about anything.  She was making FACTUAL CLAIMS about the situation.  She wasn't theorizing or hypothesizing or speculating.  She said Rondo told the Celtics he "wants out".  She also said "nobody believes me", indicating that no one else has been told the same information by their sources.

Mike

It's just off-camera banter between colleagues. It's likely that she's just voicing her opinion and not reporting something she has evidence and the other people know it. The fact that she said "I've been telling everybody that but nobody believes me" points to her friends either thinking it's just her opinion, or her having little to no credibility with her colleagues. I tend to think the former's more likely. I also think that's why she's been so silent on the subject.

Like I've said this whole time, I think she thinks there's something to her statement. I'm inclined to agree with you, Tim, in that it's much more likely to be an intuition on her part, but my point -- that statements from Ainge, Wyc, and/or anyone connected to a franchise's player should be treated with significantly more suspicion in regards to player movement -- still stands.

[BballTim]

Perhaps, but you were both responding to the same statement:

I think she thinks it's true, and I think that she's not one to be creating something out of nothing just to hear herself talk.

Except she didn't say "I think" about anything.  She was making FACTUAL CLAIMS about the situation.  She wasn't theorizing or hypothesizing or speculating.  She said Rondo told the Celtics he "wants out".  She also said "nobody believes me", indicating that no one else has been told the same information by their sources.

Mike

It's just off-camera banter between colleagues. It's likely that she's just voicing her opinion and not reporting something she has evidence and the other people know it. The fact that she said "I've been telling everybody that but nobody believes me" points to her friends either thinking it's just her opinion, or her having little to no credibility with her colleagues. I tend to think the former's more likely. I also think that's why she's been so silent on the subject.

Like I've said this whole time, I think she thinks there's something to her statement. I'm inclined to agree with you, Tim, in that it's much more likely to be an intuition on her part, but my point -- that statements from Ainge, Wyc, and/or anyone connected to a franchise's player should be treated with significantly more suspicion in regards to player movement -- still stands.

  I feel like this is related to my point. You agree that her comment was likely based on her intuition yet you seem to be arguing that she "wouldn't make things up" so she must have a source. I think whether she has a source or not is fairly questionable, which doesn't rise to the level of "making things up" because of the circumstances surrounding her comment.

[chambers]

The question is still, and has always been, who has more to lose by being deceptive and/or disingenuous in casual professional discourse: Jackie McMullan or Danny Ainge?

Add salt accordingly.

  Danny's not the only one who's disagreed with Jackie. Pretty much all of the statements by any of the relevant parties before or after her claim do.

Don't worry, I don't think your binkie is going anywhere. Unless he loses his starting gig to Fab Melo.

  Does that make Jackie your binkie? At least I'm not in a position of diligently defending her claim when you don't really seem to believe that it's true and accurate.

So who were the relevant parties and what would you expect them to say to Jackie's comments?

 In terms of whether or not Rondo told the team he wants out of  Boston, I'd say the relevant parties are Rondo, his agent and the Celts ownership/management. They were all saying pretty much the opposite of Jackie's claim before she made it and they're still saying the opposite of what she did. If Rondo wants out I'd expect him to say that, just like most players who want out say they do. It puts pressure on the team to grant his wish.

If Rondo did want a trade, are there any circumstances where Danny Ainge would admit that Rondo wanted a trade?
Would his agent be more likely to deny it or admit to it publicly regardless of whether it's true or not?
Can you honestly see Rondo saying publicly that he wants to leave ?

When do 'most' players who want out say that they want out publicly?
It's in the Celtics interests and Rondo's interests to keep it in house.
Would you agree?

Trying not to start world war three, just pointing out that this seems like some pro-Rondo logic.

[BballTim]

The question is still, and has always been, who has more to lose by being deceptive and/or disingenuous in casual professional discourse: Jackie McMullan or Danny Ainge?

Add salt accordingly.

  Danny's not the only one who's disagreed with Jackie. Pretty much all of the statements by any of the relevant parties before or after her claim do.

Don't worry, I don't think your binkie is going anywhere. Unless he loses his starting gig to Fab Melo.

  Does that make Jackie your binkie? At least I'm not in a position of diligently defending her claim when you don't really seem to believe that it's true and accurate.

So who were the relevant parties and what would you expect them to say to Jackie's comments?

 In terms of whether or not Rondo told the team he wants out of  Boston, I'd say the relevant parties are Rondo, his agent and the Celts ownership/management. They were all saying pretty much the opposite of Jackie's claim before she made it and they're still saying the opposite of what she did. If Rondo wants out I'd expect him to say that, just like most players who want out say they do. It puts pressure on the team to grant his wish.

If Rondo did want a trade, are there any circumstances where Danny Ainge would admit that Rondo wanted a trade?
Would his agent be more likely to deny it or admit to it publicly regardless of whether it's true or not?
Can you honestly see Rondo saying publicly that he wants to leave ?

When do 'most' players who want out say that they want out publicly?
It's in the Celtics interests and Rondo's interests to keep it in house.
Would you agree?

Trying not to start world war three, just pointing out that this seems like some pro-Rondo logic.

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

[sed522002]

When do 'most' players who want out say that they want out publicly?

When they've absoultely made up their mind that they want to be gone and they want it done quickly. They may not "say" it, but they may take a random trip with their agent, to a city that's rumored to be wanting them and be seen all around town with fans and the local sports stars  They may use it as leverage to get something done quickly.

[LooseCannon]

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

The most obvious reason it would be in his interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade is because the league fines players who publicly request a trade (but doesn't fine players who privately tell their team that they want to be traded).

[BballTim]

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

The most obvious reason it would be in his interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade is because the league fines players who publicly request a trade (but doesn't fine players who privately tell their team that they want to be traded).

  Sure, so he just makes sure everyone knows that he won't re-sign with Boston, which is pretty much the same thing. Obviously players and their agents are able to convey their wishes without getting fined.

[D.o.s.]

"I really don't know where that came from, as far as if I was to come here the extension wasn't going to be signed. I really don't know who started that," Anthony said. "There's a lot of things that are being said out there that I don't know where they came from. Sources, I guess. As far as the extension, if that trade were to go through, who knows what would've happened. I can't really answer that."

So for now Anthony remains with the Nuggets, who lost 115-99 to the Nets in their first meeting since trade talks collapsed for the second time this season.

Anthony said he doesn't know how much longer he'll be with the Nuggets – or even if he'll ever leave. But he said he hasn't spoken recently with general manager Masai Ujiri and team president Josh Kroenke, who have to decide if they want to move their superstar before the Feb. 24 trade deadline or deal with this situation straight into the offseason.

"When something starts brewing, or something starts going on, then I'm pretty sure Masai and Josh will come to me and let me know what's going on," Anthony said.

Before the game, coach George Karl said he still believes he might be coaching Anthony all season.

"I've always felt from the very beginning of the season that the chance of that happening was greater than all you all thought," Karl said. "I just felt that way from the first day of training camp, from September, I've always felt that way."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/31/carmelo-anthony-may-stay-_n_816672.html

“People think it's so far-fetched that I would stay in Minnesota,” he says. “And I'm not ****ting on the Lakers, but we have the better team, the better foundation. I'm having fun.”

http://www.gq.com/style/grooming/201403/kevin-love-minnesota-timberwolves-hair-beard-upgrade

Rumors of Love telling me he's opting out & wants 2 b traded r false. Last convo I had w/ him was him telling me how bad my sports coat was.

https://twitter.com/Flip_Saunders/status/436360466512609280

[chambers]

The question is still, and has always been, who has more to lose by being deceptive and/or disingenuous in casual professional discourse: Jackie McMullan or Danny Ainge?

Add salt accordingly.

  Danny's not the only one who's disagreed with Jackie. Pretty much all of the statements by any of the relevant parties before or after her claim do.

Don't worry, I don't think your binkie is going anywhere. Unless he loses his starting gig to Fab Melo.

  Does that make Jackie your binkie? At least I'm not in a position of diligently defending her claim when you don't really seem to believe that it's true and accurate.

So who were the relevant parties and what would you expect them to say to Jackie's comments?

 In terms of whether or not Rondo told the team he wants out of  Boston, I'd say the relevant parties are Rondo, his agent and the Celts ownership/management. They were all saying pretty much the opposite of Jackie's claim before she made it and they're still saying the opposite of what she did. If Rondo wants out I'd expect him to say that, just like most players who want out say they do. It puts pressure on the team to grant his wish.

If Rondo did want a trade, are there any circumstances where Danny Ainge would admit that Rondo wanted a trade?
Would his agent be more likely to deny it or admit to it publicly regardless of whether it's true or not?
Can you honestly see Rondo saying publicly that he wants to leave ?

When do 'most' players who want out say that they want out publicly?
It's in the Celtics interests and Rondo's interests to keep it in house.
Would you agree?

Trying not to start world war three, just pointing out that this seems like some pro-Rondo logic.

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

 Firstly, his last season of this contract hasn't started, so there's still plenty of time to conduct a trade if he did request one.

 Secondly, I don't recall any of those players openly requesting trades while the season was still going with their old teams? Maybe the Magic front office stating Howard was demanding a trade after he flip-flop extended for the one season, but Howard was denying all rumors of trade requests.

 I remember Carmelo denying requests, Howard denying requests, Chris Paul and agent denying requests. Flip Saunders denied that Love wanted out of Minnesota when we all knew that was crap- although it was a different situation because there was animosity between Love and the Wolves- the kind of animosity that Rondo and the Celtics likely do not have.

Didn't Nate Robinson's agent get fined $50,000 for saying Nate wanted a trade out of New York?
Danny Ainge admitting that Rondo wants a trade would likely push Rondo's trade value down significantly- and while Rondo's value is at an all time low, I seriously doubt he would put his hand on the bible when asked the question if Rondo had asked for a trade.

Again, this is going down the opinion/ 'context' path that we've debated like groundhog day- because

IF his 'demands' are true- does he mean
a) Right now ( which I personally doubt)    or
b) If the Celtics can't get him any help by the end of the season/offseason.

In Rondo's case, I'd argue it's in his interest to stay in Boston for the rest of the season while he proves his value. That's why in my opinion, IF this Jackie Mac claim is true, then he's likely given them the ultimatum that he'll leave if they don't make the team better by the time he has to decide in offseason 2015- he's said that he wants to stay but has no choice but to leave unless Danny pulls a rabbit out of a hat and gets some ballers to BeanTown to help him.
 Here's another thought...

IF Jackie Mac's comment is true, what if Rondo is going to stay in Boston regardless, but has told the Celtics he'll leave if they don't get some more stars here. His reason being he wants some stars now as he enters his prime. As Danny said this week, there were some very tempting trades he was offered this off season- but he held back and was happy he didn't pull the trigger.

Danny's always going to aggressively try and make the Celtics better, but some added pressure from your superstar player doesn't hurt does it?

[MBunge]

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

The most obvious reason it would be in his interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade is because the league fines players who publicly request a trade (but doesn't fine players who privately tell their team that they want to be traded).

Which is why NO ONE in the world knew that Kevin Love wanted to be traded.

Mike

[LooseCannon]

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

The most obvious reason it would be in his interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade is because the league fines players who publicly request a trade (but doesn't fine players who privately tell their team that they want to be traded).

Which is why NO ONE in the world knew that Kevin Love wanted to be traded.

Mike

My point is, it's stupid for anyone to say that Rondo should publicly and explicitly request a trade if he wants out.

[BballTim]

The question is still, and has always been, who has more to lose by being deceptive and/or disingenuous in casual professional discourse: Jackie McMullan or Danny Ainge?

Add salt accordingly.

  Danny's not the only one who's disagreed with Jackie. Pretty much all of the statements by any of the relevant parties before or after her claim do.

Don't worry, I don't think your binkie is going anywhere. Unless he loses his starting gig to Fab Melo.

  Does that make Jackie your binkie? At least I'm not in a position of diligently defending her claim when you don't really seem to believe that it's true and accurate.

So who were the relevant parties and what would you expect them to say to Jackie's comments?

 In terms of whether or not Rondo told the team he wants out of  Boston, I'd say the relevant parties are Rondo, his agent and the Celts ownership/management. They were all saying pretty much the opposite of Jackie's claim before she made it and they're still saying the opposite of what she did. If Rondo wants out I'd expect him to say that, just like most players who want out say they do. It puts pressure on the team to grant his wish.

If Rondo did want a trade, are there any circumstances where Danny Ainge would admit that Rondo wanted a trade?
Would his agent be more likely to deny it or admit to it publicly regardless of whether it's true or not?
Can you honestly see Rondo saying publicly that he wants to leave ?

When do 'most' players who want out say that they want out publicly?
It's in the Celtics interests and Rondo's interests to keep it in house.
Would you agree?

Trying not to start world war three, just pointing out that this seems like some pro-Rondo logic.

  Why would it be in Rondo's interest to keep quiet about wanting a trade? What happened when players like CP/Melo/Love/Howard requested trades? They got their wish. If Rondo really wants out of Boston the fastest way to do it would probably be to publicly request a trade. I don't really see Rondo doing that because I don't think he's told the Celts that he wants out of Boston.

 Firstly, his last season of this contract hasn't started, so there's still plenty of time to conduct a trade if he did request one.

 Secondly, I don't recall any of those players openly requesting trades while the season was still going with their old teams? Maybe the Magic front office stating Howard was demanding a trade after he flip-flop extended for the one season, but Howard was denying all rumors of trade requests.

 I remember Carmelo denying requests, Howard denying requests, Chris Paul and agent denying requests. Flip Saunders denied that Love wanted out of Minnesota when we all knew that was crap- although it was a different situation because there was animosity between Love and the Wolves- the kind of animosity that Rondo and the Celtics likely do not have.

  Paul and Love were both traded with a full season left on their previous cont ract. Same with Howard, I think. They certainly weren't hiding the fact that they wanted out when they were on the block.

Didn't Nate Robinson's agent get fined $50,000 for saying Nate wanted a trade out of New York?
Danny Ainge admitting that Rondo wants a trade would likely push Rondo's trade value down significantly- and while Rondo's value is at an all time low, I seriously doubt he would put his hand on the bible when asked the question if Rondo had asked for a trade.

  Obviously you don't know how high or how low Rondo's trade value is.

Again, this is going down the opinion/ 'context' path that we've debated like groundhog day- because

IF his 'demands' are true- does he mean
a) Right now ( which I personally doubt)    or
b) If the Celtics can't get him any help by the end of the season/offseason.

  If he's evaluating the team at the end of the season to decide whether or not he's coming back then he isn't really "demanding" anything.

In Rondo's case, I'd argue it's in his interest to stay in Boston for the rest of the season while he proves his value. That's why in my opinion, IF this Jackie Mac claim is true, then he's likely given them the ultimatum that he'll leave if they don't make the team better by the time he has to decide in offseason 2015- he's said that he wants to stay but has no choice but to leave unless Danny pulls a rabbit out of a hat and gets some ballers to BeanTown to help him.

  "he wants to stay" (and I don't disagree with what you're saying) is the opposite of "he wants out". Also, it's not at all in Rondo's best interest to stay in Boston if he's not going to re-sign with them. It's in his best interest to be on the team he wants to sign with when the season ends.

IF Jackie Mac's comment is true, what if Rondo is going to stay in Boston regardless, but has told the Celtics he'll leave if they don't get some more stars here. His reason being he wants some stars now as he enters his prime. As Danny said this week, there were some very tempting trades he was offered this off season- but he held back and was happy he didn't pull the trigger.

Danny's always going to aggressively try and make the Celtics better, but some added pressure from your superstar player doesn't hurt does it?

  Unless he's told them that he'll stay as long as the money's what he wants regardless of the state of the team, Danny would realize that he has to have the team pointed in the right direction for Rondo to stay.