It's all just re-arranging deck chairs...

[mgent]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Um.... no, obviously not.  That wasn't a real question was it?

[Eja117]

If two trips to the finals and one title is enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of a different team.  Cleveland, perhaps?  We are talking about the Celtics, right?   This is Boston isn't it? 

Seriously, is one title ever enough?

So...unless you can date a supermodel, you don't bother going out with anyone?  Unless the meal was prepared by a 5 star chef, you'd rather go hungry?  That if you won the lottery, but it wasn't the jackpot prize, you'd throw the ticket away?

Mike

Woah woah woah. You date people other than rich supermodels that can cook?

[hwangjini_1]

If two trips to the finals and one title is enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of a different team.  Cleveland, perhaps?  We are talking about the Celtics, right?   This is Boston isn't it? 

Seriously, is one title ever enough?

So...unless you can date a supermodel, you don't bother going out with anyone?  Unless the meal was prepared by a 5 star chef, you'd rather go hungry?  That if you won the lottery, but it wasn't the jackpot prize, you'd throw the ticket away?

Mike

Woah woah woah. You date people other than rich supermodels that can cook?

i believe he was responding with shock and disbelief that section301 does NOT have dates with cooking super models, unlike the rest of us here at cb. 

perhaps one of us here has a spare supermodel girlfriend we can introduce to section 301?

[MBunge]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Um.... no, obviously not.  That wasn't a real question was it?

Love just averaged 26.1 points and 12.5 rebounds on about 46% from the field and 37% from three.

At the same age, Nowitski averaged 21.8 points and 8.7 rebounds on about 46% from the field and 34% from three.  Nowitski has also averaged more than 26.1 points only one season in his career, I believe and has never come close to averaging 12.5 boards.  And it's not like Dirk has ever been a great defender.

Mike

[Sketch5]

I think it's funny the OP keeps talking about a dynasty. The only one we have right now is the Spurs, and they aren't winning every year, but always in the mix with out any transcendent players.

Also people forget Love is 25. If he stays healthy he can play for ten more years at a high level, Rondo may last an other 6 to 8. If we got to keep Smart and/or Young, thats an other 15 years, and that doesn't included who we could get with FA's having Love and Rondo, or any picks we don't use up. We keep the Nets 2016 when the pick should be at it's best, thats an other 20 year old, and he's only 30 in 12 years from now.

I think DA's plan is getting Love for a couple of our, or an other teams pieces, send a couple of our younger guys out, but have a mixture of guys from 20 to 30 to make title runs.

[Celtics4ever]

Odds of him coming here is slim.   I think he used us to get the trade talks going.

[BballTim]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Dominant.  Dominant.  I don't want a one - off, we already had one of those.  I want a decade plus of being in the conversation for the finals.  Anything less is just....rearranging deck chairs.  We were talking about the "window" closing on the KG Celtics before they even played a game.

  I don't see the point of this thread. It's true we don't have a transcendent player on the roster. It's true that you (and everyone else) wants one. So where does that leave things? There have been, depending on your definition of a transcendent player, probably less than 10 that came into the league in the last 30 years. By those odds there's roughly a 1 in 4 chance we'll drat such a player in the next 30 years. What are your plans for the team over the next 30 years when we aren't likely to get one? Because the people who are talking about Sully vs Oly or Rondo's worth want a superstar just as much as you do, and want to win a title just as much as you. Is your plan to ignore the day to day (or year to year) happenings with the team while you wait for the next Bird or Russell to get drafted?

[Surferdad]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Dominant.  Dominant.  I don't want a one - off, we already had one of those.  I want a decade plus of being in the conversation for the finals.  Anything less is just....rearranging deck chairs.  We were talking about the "window" closing on the KG Celtics before they even played a game.

  I don't see the point of this thread. It's true we don't have a transcendent player on the roster. It's true that you (and everyone else) wants one. So where does that leave things? There have been, depending on your definition of a transcendent player, probably less than 10 that came into the league in the last 30 years. By those odds there's roughly a 1 in 4 chance we'll drat such a player in the next 30 years. What are your plans for the team over the next 30 years when we aren't likely to get one? Because the people who are talking about Sully vs Oly or Rondo's worth want a superstar just as much as you do, and want to win a title just as much as you. Is your plan to ignore the day to day (or year to year) happenings with the team while you wait for the next Bird or Russell to get drafted?

Yup, and the the OP has one major law in this argument:  If you keep developing your players, even if they are not "transcendent" you can eventually flip them for such a player.  Witness Kevin Garnett.

[D.o.s.]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

There was a pretty interesting Wages of Wins article on how Ben Wallace should be considered a franchise player. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's a good read.

I agree with you, though.  You can get the right combination of talent to win a championship without having a "make everyone say 'wow' " player on your team. At that point, though, it seems like its more about matchups and overall health.

[Surferdad]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

There was a pretty interesting Wages of Wins article on how Ben Wallace should be considered a franchise player. I'm not sure I buy it, but it's a good read.

I agree with you, though.  You can get the right combination of talent to win a championship without having a "make everyone say 'wow' " player on your team. At that point, though, it seems like its more about matchups and overall health.

After the Postons won it all, many people were saying that this was the new model to win a championship. I think the ensuing 6-8 years have proven that to be an abberation.  In general you need a transcendent player. But that does not mean Ainge I simply "rearranging deck chairs" currently. We are going to have to go through having some strange rosters until he gets there. Remember Raef LaFrentz, Stephon Marbury, Ricky Davis, Vin Baker etc...

[D.o.s.]

That's actually pretty close to what the WoW guy is asserting. I found the article:
http://wagesofwins.com/2013/01/02/the-myth-of-the-2004-pistons/

And the header is exactly that:

    No team since the 1978-1979 Seattle Supersonics has won a title without a top 10 player in Wins Produced.
    No teams other than the 1998-1999 New York Knicks and 1978-1979 Seattle Supersonics have made the Finals without a top 15 player in Wins Produced

That was from last January (of '13), and they're still a little too attached to Wins Produced for my liking -- I don't dig single-number-for-total-contribution stats -- but it goes a lot way towards making the case for the Pistons and Wallace

[Al91]

I generally agree with everything you said but I noticed you left Kobe out, twice.

Kobe was never the best player on any of his championship teams.

I don't know man. Kobe and Shaq is Kobe and Shaq. Only one of them won two rings without the other. Some could argue Shaq was better and some could argue Kobe..but both still took their teams to the promise land with superbly talented players around them.

The same Kobe who shot 6 for 24 in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals and had to be saved by Pau Gasol and 21 Free throws gifted to his team in the 4th Quarter? Okay.

I don't judge players on just one game. If I did that I would say Ray Allen isn't worthy of the Hall of Fame cause he missed about every shot he could've taken in what, Game 5 or 6 of that series?

Frankly it sounds absurd to leave Kobe off a list of transcendent players. EVERY champion has help.

[BballTim]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Dominant.  Dominant.  I don't want a one - off, we already had one of those.  I want a decade plus of being in the conversation for the finals.  Anything less is just....rearranging deck chairs.  We were talking about the "window" closing on the KG Celtics before they even played a game.

If two trips to the Finals and one title aren't enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of another sport.  Darts, perhaps?

Mike

If two trips to the finals and one title is enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of a different team.  Cleveland, perhaps?  We are talking about the Celtics, right?   This is Boston isn't it? 

Seriously, is one title ever enough?

  He's the fan of a team that's won 1 title in 28 years and doesn't have another one on the current horizon. That's the reality of the situation. I'd wonder how long you've been following the team , and what you've thought of those 28 years.

[cb8883]

Odds of him coming here is slim.   I think he used us to get the trade talks going.

I agree. Love is a California guy. Why would he want to come to cold Boston? He used Boston and Danny allowed it because he's obsessed with keeping role player Rondo happy. At least he didn't mess up and trade the picks. I wish the Celtics won that coin flip and drafted Exum. The guy has a massive ceiling.

[D.o.s.]

Bottom line is - teams don't win without a transcendent player.  An elite, for the ages talent.  The Celtics don't have one, and won't have one until they draft him.  Until then, it truly doesn't matter what they do, as much as we would like to believe otherwise. 

No one like that is available via trade right now.  Honestly, seriously, and for true - does anyone really believe Kevin Love is an all time great?   He's good, but he's not on a Bird-Magic-Isiah level.  Nor is he on a LeBron-Duncan-Durant level.

The Pistons won a title without a transcendent player.  The Spurs just won one without any player currently producing at a transcendent level.  And can Love be as good as Dirk Nowitski, 'cause he won a title with Jason Terry and Tyson Chandler as the 2nd and 3rd most important on the roster.

Mike

Dominant.  Dominant.  I don't want a one - off, we already had one of those.  I want a decade plus of being in the conversation for the finals.  Anything less is just....rearranging deck chairs.  We were talking about the "window" closing on the KG Celtics before they even played a game.

If two trips to the Finals and one title aren't enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of another sport.  Darts, perhaps?

Mike

If two trips to the finals and one title is enough for you, perhaps you need to become a fan of a different team.  Cleveland, perhaps?  We are talking about the Celtics, right?   This is Boston isn't it? 

Seriously, is one title ever enough?

  He's the fan of a team that's won 1 title in 28 years and doesn't have another one on the current horizon. That's the reality of the situation. I'd wonder how long you've been following the team , and what you've thought of those 28 years.

Well said.