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Rondo's Defense
« on: June 14, 2014, 09:42:59 PM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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I've seen a fair amount of NBA writers mentioning Rondo's defense in a positive light as of late. I have always thought his defense is vastly overrated, as he gets lazy and often takes chances going for steals.

Could any wiser fans than I -- potentially ones with a grasp of advanced numbers -- let me know if this belief is merely conjecture or based in something more?

Thanks.

Jiri

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 09:55:48 PM »

Offline GreenWarrior

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as a one on one defender I don't think Rondo will ever shut an opposing PG down. if that is what he is getting praise for then these opinions are from people that don't watch him. but in the NBA there aren't many players that can lock anyone down one on one...it's why the game has deteriorated into an iso game.

Rondo is good at diagnosing a play and being in the right spot and playing passing lanes and coming up with steals.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 10:21:44 PM »

Offline NorthernLightning

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He's probably going to be pretty solid defending 2 guards going forward because he's stronger.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 10:34:48 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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He always was good at steals prior to the injury but often he gambles for them and get's out of position.   If as some do, consider rebounds as part of defense then he gets a boost in that area because he is top notch rebounder.   Defensive rebounds deny the other team the ball and change possession.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 11:53:50 PM »

Offline Celtics18

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He's not perfect, but over the course of his career, he has been one of the premier defenders at the point guard position in the league. 

The numbers show this.  The awards show this.  For me, the eye test confirms what the numbers and the experts say.  However, for others the eye test only shows when he makes a mistake or gets beaten defensively. 
DKC Seventy-Sixers:

PG: G. Hill/D. Schroder
SG: C. Lee/B. Hield/T. Luwawu
SF:  Giannis/J. Lamb/M. Kuzminskas
PF:  E. Ilyasova/J. Jerebko/R. Christmas
C:    N. Vucevic/K. Olynyk/E. Davis/C. Jefferson

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2014, 04:56:12 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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My deduction from watching him over the years is that Rondo was indeed an elite defensive player in past seasons - up until maybe two or three seasons ago, back when the actual big three (Pierce, Ray, Kevin) were still together and were still significant.

In those days Rondo seemed capable of shutting down almost any PG he was matched up with.  He used to often apply full court pressure (not unlike Avery Bradley has a tendancy to) and I would go so far as to has he was probably the best defensive PG in the league at that time...if not then I would cetainly say one of the best.

Last season his defense was pretty terrible, but I don't hold that against him because it's natural for a player to be a bit slower off the mark and a bit more cautious after going through a major surgery.  The thing that concerns me though is that in the previous season BEFORE he got the ACL injury, he already had looked like his defense had fallen off in a major way.

I do have a theory for this.  In the earlier Celtics years Rondo was really coming in to his own, but the team still belonged to Pierce, Ray and Kevin.  Those guys had the ball in their hands a lot, and Rondo didn't really need to do so much on the court because each of those three guys was capable of hitting that big last minute shot when there didn't seem like there was anywhere for the offense to go. Likewise Pierce was a very good playmaker at the SF spot and was often quite capable of playing Point-Forward in spots.

These days Rondo has no real go-to scorers on the team, so everything in the offense basically has to go through him.  He has to bring the ball up the court, he needs to run all the plays, and he rarely gets taken out of the game for a breather.  Personally, I think he is probably just so exhausted from having so much offensive realiability, that he simply doesn't have the energy to play defense at the same high level he used to do 3 or so years ago.  I think that's why he'll tend to sag off a lot more, pressure the  ball a lot less, and often gets caught cheating on plays. 

Rondo has all the tools to be an elite defensive player and I think he is very capable of being one today, but before that can happen I think the Celtics need to get him some support - another ball handler or two who can occasionally bring the ball up the court or run some plays so that Rondo doesn't have to push himself so hard.  This is why I'd love to get a guy like Melo on the team, because he can create his own offense.  From time to time if he's tired Rondo could just defer to Melo and he'd be able to take control of the game. 

This is also part of the reason why I'd be pretty happy if Boston can get either Exum or Smart in the draft.  Either of those guys is capable of creating offense either as a scorer or as a playmaker, so having either of those guys on the court alongside Rondo would I think help a lot to reduce some of that load. 

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2014, 05:49:08 AM »

Offline clover

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I've seen a fair amount of NBA writers mentioning Rondo's defense in a positive light as of late. I have always thought his defense is vastly overrated, as he gets lazy and often takes chances going for steals.

Could any wiser fans than I -- potentially ones with a grasp of advanced numbers -- let me know if this belief is merely conjecture or based in something more?

Thanks.

Jiri

Doc, is that you?

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2014, 07:22:32 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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My deduction from watching him over the years is that Rondo was indeed an elite defensive player in past seasons - up until maybe two or three seasons ago, back when the actual big three (Pierce, Ray, Kevin) were still together and were still significant.

In those days Rondo seemed capable of shutting down almost any PG he was matched up with.  He used to often apply full court pressure (not unlike Avery Bradley has a tendancy to) and I would go so far as to has he was probably the best defensive PG in the league at that time...if not then I would cetainly say one of the best.

Last season his defense was pretty terrible, but I don't hold that against him because it's natural for a player to be a bit slower off the mark and a bit more cautious after going through a major surgery.  The thing that concerns me though is that in the previous season BEFORE he got the ACL injury, he already had looked like his defense had fallen off in a major way.

I do have a theory for this.  In the earlier Celtics years Rondo was really coming in to his own, but the team still belonged to Pierce, Ray and Kevin.  Those guys had the ball in their hands a lot, and Rondo didn't really need to do so much on the court because each of those three guys was capable of hitting that big last minute shot when there didn't seem like there was anywhere for the offense to go. Likewise Pierce was a very good playmaker at the SF spot and was often quite capable of playing Point-Forward in spots.

These days Rondo has no real go-to scorers on the team, so everything in the offense basically has to go through him.  He has to bring the ball up the court, he needs to run all the plays, and he rarely gets taken out of the game for a breather.  Personally, I think he is probably just so exhausted from having so much offensive realiability, that he simply doesn't have the energy to play defense at the same high level he used to do 3 or so years ago.  I think that's why he'll tend to sag off a lot more, pressure the  ball a lot less, and often gets caught cheating on plays. 

Rondo has all the tools to be an elite defensive player and I think he is very capable of being one today, but before that can happen I think the Celtics need to get him some support - another ball handler or two who can occasionally bring the ball up the court or run some plays so that Rondo doesn't have to push himself so hard.  This is why I'd love to get a guy like Melo on the team, because he can create his own offense.  From time to time if he's tired Rondo could just defer to Melo and he'd be able to take control of the game. 

This is also part of the reason why I'd be pretty happy if Boston can get either Exum or Smart in the draft.  Either of those guys is capable of creating offense either as a scorer or as a playmaker, so having either of those guys on the court alongside Rondo would I think help a lot to reduce some of that load.

I think if we get Smart in the draft then Rondo will be traded. Smart is much more of a pg than sg and I don't think a backcourt of RondoSmart will work.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 07:23:36 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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My deduction from watching him over the years is that Rondo was indeed an elite defensive player in past seasons - up until maybe two or three seasons ago, back when the actual big three (Pierce, Ray, Kevin) were still together and were still significant.

In those days Rondo seemed capable of shutting down almost any PG he was matched up with.  He used to often apply full court pressure (not unlike Avery Bradley has a tendancy to) and I would go so far as to has he was probably the best defensive PG in the league at that time...if not then I would cetainly say one of the best.

Last season his defense was pretty terrible, but I don't hold that against him because it's natural for a player to be a bit slower off the mark and a bit more cautious after going through a major surgery.  The thing that concerns me though is that in the previous season BEFORE he got the ACL injury, he already had looked like his defense had fallen off in a major way.

I do have a theory for this.  In the earlier Celtics years Rondo was really coming in to his own, but the team still belonged to Pierce, Ray and Kevin.  Those guys had the ball in their hands a lot, and Rondo didn't really need to do so much on the court because each of those three guys was capable of hitting that big last minute shot when there didn't seem like there was anywhere for the offense to go. Likewise Pierce was a very good playmaker at the SF spot and was often quite capable of playing Point-Forward in spots.

These days Rondo has no real go-to scorers on the team, so everything in the offense basically has to go through him.  He has to bring the ball up the court, he needs to run all the plays, and he rarely gets taken out of the game for a breather.  Personally, I think he is probably just so exhausted from having so much offensive realiability, that he simply doesn't have the energy to play defense at the same high level he used to do 3 or so years ago.  I think that's why he'll tend to sag off a lot more, pressure the  ball a lot less, and often gets caught cheating on plays. 

Rondo has all the tools to be an elite defensive player and I think he is very capable of being one today, but before that can happen I think the Celtics need to get him some support - another ball handler or two who can occasionally bring the ball up the court or run some plays so that Rondo doesn't have to push himself so hard.  This is why I'd love to get a guy like Melo on the team, because he can create his own offense.  From time to time if he's tired Rondo could just defer to Melo and he'd be able to take control of the game. 

This is also part of the reason why I'd be pretty happy if Boston can get either Exum or Smart in the draft.  Either of those guys is capable of creating offense either as a scorer or as a playmaker, so having either of those guys on the court alongside Rondo would I think help a lot to reduce some of that load.

I think if we get Smart in the draft then Rondo will be traded. Smart is much more of a pg than sg and I don't think a backcourt of RondoSmart will work.

I do agree with some of your analysis though.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 08:25:28 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I can understand that sentiment, but at the same time I don't think Smart would have problems playing the SG spot.

To be honest, big guards are pretty rare these days.  You have a couple of 6'8" guys that spend a bit of time at the SG spot (guys like Joe Johnson, Paul George, etc) and then you have probably a handful of 6'6" shooting guards.  Aside from that there are a ton of SG's out there (like AB, Monta Ellis, Eric Gordon, Bradley Beal, etc) who are around that 6'3" - 6'4" range yet still remain very competitive at that position.

Smart is only listed at 6'4" at best but has an incredibly long (6'9") wingspan and an extremely strong (225lb) frame.  While these physical attributes would be more of an advantage for him at the PG spot, where he'd be a matchup nightmare most nights, I think that size would also allow him to hold his own pretty well at the SG spot as well.

Also while Smart is certainly capable in terms of his quickness, ball handling and passing, he's not outstanding at either.  There are some people out there who question whether his 'pure PG skills' are good enough to run a high calibre NBA offense.  None of those factors will likely be an issue at the SG spot, where his quickness, ball handling and passing skills could actually become an advantage.

Plus lets be honest - even if Smart did become a PG in the NBA, he would almost certainly be a 'scoring' PG rather than a more traditional floor general.  While he's certainly not a pure shooter (not many guards in today's league are) he is unquestionably a very good scorer who can get to the basket and to the line pretty much at will. 

I think Smart's role in the NBA will most likely be that of a score-first PG but I also think he has the attributes to excel at the SG spot.  If Danny decided not to bring Bradley back via free agency (he may well get an insanely high offer from another team that Danny can't match) then it would not at all surprise me to see him take Smart with the #6 pick and start him at SG. 

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 09:57:51 AM »

Offline Jiri Welsch

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I've seen a fair amount of NBA writers mentioning Rondo's defense in a positive light as of late. I have always thought his defense is vastly overrated, as he gets lazy and often takes chances going for steals.

Could any wiser fans than I -- potentially ones with a grasp of advanced numbers -- let me know if this belief is merely conjecture or based in something more?

Thanks.

Jiri

Doc, is that you?

No, just me Jiri -- the man who fleeced Cleveland for a first rounder

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 10:31:22 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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My deduction from watching him over the years is that Rondo was indeed an elite defensive player in past seasons - up until maybe two or three seasons ago, back when the actual big three (Pierce, Ray, Kevin) were still together and were still significant.

In those days Rondo seemed capable of shutting down almost any PG he was matched up with.  He used to often apply full court pressure (not unlike Avery Bradley has a tendancy to) and I would go so far as to has he was probably the best defensive PG in the league at that time...if not then I would cetainly say one of the best.

Last season his defense was pretty terrible, but I don't hold that against him because it's natural for a player to be a bit slower off the mark and a bit more cautious after going through a major surgery.  The thing that concerns me though is that in the previous season BEFORE he got the ACL injury, he already had looked like his defense had fallen off in a major way.

I do have a theory for this.  In the earlier Celtics years Rondo was really coming in to his own, but the team still belonged to Pierce, Ray and Kevin.  Those guys had the ball in their hands a lot, and Rondo didn't really need to do so much on the court because each of those three guys was capable of hitting that big last minute shot when there didn't seem like there was anywhere for the offense to go. Likewise Pierce was a very good playmaker at the SF spot and was often quite capable of playing Point-Forward in spots.

These days Rondo has no real go-to scorers on the team, so everything in the offense basically has to go through him.  He has to bring the ball up the court, he needs to run all the plays, and he rarely gets taken out of the game for a breather.  Personally, I think he is probably just so exhausted from having so much offensive realiability, that he simply doesn't have the energy to play defense at the same high level he used to do 3 or so years ago.  I think that's why he'll tend to sag off a lot more, pressure the  ball a lot less, and often gets caught cheating on plays. 

Rondo has all the tools to be an elite defensive player and I think he is very capable of being one today, but before that can happen I think the Celtics need to get him some support - another ball handler or two who can occasionally bring the ball up the court or run some plays so that Rondo doesn't have to push himself so hard.  This is why I'd love to get a guy like Melo on the team, because he can create his own offense.  From time to time if he's tired Rondo could just defer to Melo and he'd be able to take control of the game. 

This is also part of the reason why I'd be pretty happy if Boston can get either Exum or Smart in the draft.  Either of those guys is capable of creating offense either as a scorer or as a playmaker, so having either of those guys on the court alongside Rondo would I think help a lot to reduce some of that load.

Nice post, I think your point about his offensive responsibilities draining him is a sensible one. TP. I'm hopeful that his defense will recover as he returns to full health and eventually is surrounded by better offensive players.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 10:39:18 AM »

Offline NorthernLightning

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the best defensive pgs tend to be young whippersnappers.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 10:43:44 AM »

Offline Rhyso

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My deduction from watching him over the years is that Rondo was indeed an elite defensive player in past seasons - up until maybe two or three seasons ago, back when the actual big three (Pierce, Ray, Kevin) were still together and were still significant.

In those days Rondo seemed capable of shutting down almost any PG he was matched up with.  He used to often apply full court pressure (not unlike Avery Bradley has a tendancy to) and I would go so far as to has he was probably the best defensive PG in the league at that time...if not then I would cetainly say one of the best.

Last season his defense was pretty terrible, but I don't hold that against him because it's natural for a player to be a bit slower off the mark and a bit more cautious after going through a major surgery.  The thing that concerns me though is that in the previous season BEFORE he got the ACL injury, he already had looked like his defense had fallen off in a major way.

I do have a theory for this.  In the earlier Celtics years Rondo was really coming in to his own, but the team still belonged to Pierce, Ray and Kevin.  Those guys had the ball in their hands a lot, and Rondo didn't really need to do so much on the court because each of those three guys was capable of hitting that big last minute shot when there didn't seem like there was anywhere for the offense to go. Likewise Pierce was a very good playmaker at the SF spot and was often quite capable of playing Point-Forward in spots.

These days Rondo has no real go-to scorers on the team, so everything in the offense basically has to go through him.  He has to bring the ball up the court, he needs to run all the plays, and he rarely gets taken out of the game for a breather.  Personally, I think he is probably just so exhausted from having so much offensive realiability, that he simply doesn't have the energy to play defense at the same high level he used to do 3 or so years ago.  I think that's why he'll tend to sag off a lot more, pressure the  ball a lot less, and often gets caught cheating on plays. 

Rondo has all the tools to be an elite defensive player and I think he is very capable of being one today, but before that can happen I think the Celtics need to get him some support - another ball handler or two who can occasionally bring the ball up the court or run some plays so that Rondo doesn't have to push himself so hard.  This is why I'd love to get a guy like Melo on the team, because he can create his own offense.  From time to time if he's tired Rondo could just defer to Melo and he'd be able to take control of the game. 

This is also part of the reason why I'd be pretty happy if Boston can get either Exum or Smart in the draft.  Either of those guys is capable of creating offense either as a scorer or as a playmaker, so having either of those guys on the court alongside Rondo would I think help a lot to reduce some of that load.

TP

Rondos defensive abilities far to often get overlooked when ranking him against other PGs. There are not many PGs who play a better two-way game than Rondo. With so many 'great' young PGs in the league, we need Rondo now more than ever to shut them down.

Re: Rondo's Defense
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 11:55:04 AM »

Offline BballTim

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He's not perfect, but over the course of his career, he has been one of the premier defenders at the point guard position in the league. 

The numbers show this.  The awards show this.  For me, the eye test confirms what the numbers and the experts say.  However, for others the eye test only shows when he makes a mistake or gets beaten defensively.

  I'd agree with this. 4 all-defense teams and a couple of top 5 finishes in DPOY voting, and multiple years when he was ranked a top defender in the GM preseason polls. And on top of that, numbers-wise, he was always among the leaders in point guards. His responsibilities on that end of the court actually increased in 2012 and 2013, especially when AB was out. Rondo generally defended the better of the team's shooting guard and point guard when he was playing with guys like Ray and Jet. Go back to the 2012 ecf when he was playing a ton of minutes and being the dominant player on offense and you'd see Rondo spending much of his time guarding Wade, leaving Chalmers to whoever he was playing with.