Sully and KO

[droopdog7]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

[BballTim]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

[droopdog7]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

[GreenWarrior]

Minn. needs to get bad quickly, in their situation it's the best option. accepting a trade with Chi. doesn't do that.

unless their goal is to be an 8th seed, get bounced in the 1st rnd. and then decide to really rebuild.

[BballTim]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

  I think you also have to factor in that Butler and Gibson won't help the team contend but they'll probably help the team enough that they won't get a top pick. It just seems like a wasted trade for a rebuilding team. You'd also have to consider that Sully's much younger than Gibson and I think you're underestimating the value of unprotected future picks if we chose to trade one.

[droopdog7]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

  I think you also have to factor in that Butler and Gibson won't help the team contend but they'll probably help the team enough that they won't get a top pick. It just seems like a wasted trade for a rebuilding team. You'd also have to consider that Sully's much younger than Gibson and I think you're underestimating the value of unprotected future picks if we chose to trade one.

Yes, does Minn want to completely tank is the question.  I have been basing my thoughts on value of the packages primarily.  As for Sully, I know people talk about his youth.  But I think his potential is so limited that he probably has already reached it.  So basically, Sully is nothing more than a role player on a good team.  Gibson, on the other hand, is a fantastic role player.  Can guard multiple positions well, hit the open shot, stays within himself, and is tough as nails.  I am thinking every good team in the league would want a Taj Gibson on their team.

The question, of course, is what Minn would want.  I continue to think that Sully, while decent, doesn't have a whole lot of value and isn't really worth trading for whether you have a good or bad team.

[Rondo9]

Sullinger is 22 and has plenty of room to grow. Gibson is 29 and it looks like he'll always be a role player. I think your being cynical on Sullinger's ceiling.

[BballTim]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

  I think you also have to factor in that Butler and Gibson won't help the team contend but they'll probably help the team enough that they won't get a top pick. It just seems like a wasted trade for a rebuilding team. You'd also have to consider that Sully's much younger than Gibson and I think you're underestimating the value of unprotected future picks if we chose to trade one.

Yes, does Minn want to completely tank is the question.  I have been basing my thoughts on value of the packages primarily.  As for Sully, I know people talk about his youth.  But I think his potential is so limited that he probably has already reached it.  So basically, Sully is nothing more than a role player on a good team.  Gibson, on the other hand, is a fantastic role player.  Can guard multiple positions well, hit the open shot, stays within himself, and is tough as nails.  I am thinking every good team in the league would want a Taj Gibson on their team.

The question, of course, is what Minn would want.  I continue to think that Sully, while decent, doesn't have a whole lot of value and isn't really worth trading for whether you have a good or bad team.

  Gibson isn't much of a shooter once you get him away from the basket, and I don't think it's overly likely Sully's hit his ceiling, especially considering the huge jump in his per36 scoring this year.

[droopdog7]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

  I think you also have to factor in that Butler and Gibson won't help the team contend but they'll probably help the team enough that they won't get a top pick. It just seems like a wasted trade for a rebuilding team. You'd also have to consider that Sully's much younger than Gibson and I think you're underestimating the value of unprotected future picks if we chose to trade one.

Yes, does Minn want to completely tank is the question.  I have been basing my thoughts on value of the packages primarily.  As for Sully, I know people talk about his youth.  But I think his potential is so limited that he probably has already reached it.  So basically, Sully is nothing more than a role player on a good team.  Gibson, on the other hand, is a fantastic role player.  Can guard multiple positions well, hit the open shot, stays within himself, and is tough as nails.  I am thinking every good team in the league would want a Taj Gibson on their team.

The question, of course, is what Minn would want.  I continue to think that Sully, while decent, doesn't have a whole lot of value and isn't really worth trading for whether you have a good or bad team.

  Gibson isn't much of a shooter once you get him away from the basket, and I don't think it's overly likely Sully's hit his ceiling, especially considering the huge jump in his per36 scoring this year.

Yes, much of this is hinged on my view of Sully.  But come on, arguing per36 isn't very sound is it.  Of course it jumped.  He went from garbage man to a second or third option. 

And of course, we all know that numbers aren't always comparable.  Someone had to score, even on bad teams.  The question is, how much value do you add to winning.  Sully won't be a consistent inside presence because of his lack of lift.  Can he get some buckets?  Sure.  But if a team wanted to take him out of a game down low, they could.  And forget about certain matchups.  Anyone with size and decent bulk is going to give Sully lots of problems.  And extending out to the 3-point is not necessarily a good thing for him.  Decent shooter but not great. 

Defensively Sully is adequate on his man.  As for team and pick and roll and stuff like that, probably below average.  I will give you that he is a good rebounder.

So how is anything going to change for him?  Perhaps, if he lost a good deal of weight (which I hear ain't happening now), then Sully can transform his game.  But until then, Sully may be able to get numbers on a bad team, and contribute some on a good team, that is about it in my mind.

[BballTim]

You may be right.  But Chicago can offer much better players and potential.

  Which better players with better potential?

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

People will disagree I am sure but I bet Gibson has more value than Sully or KO.  Mirotic they say is a top 10 talent.  In the end, it probably depends on what they think of Butler.  I don't know enough about him to compare him to KO and Sully, who I already hinted are no better than role players on a good team.

  None of the picks they'd trade can be in the top 10, Gibson's 29 or so and Butler's 24 or 25. There's not much potential there. Not saying it's a terrible offer, but it doesn't seem to do much for a team with Minny's roster and it seems like something that wouldn't be hard to top.

You're right, some will depend in Minn's needs and what direction they want to take.  Moritic, it can be argued, has equal value to the #6 pick.  Of course, will he come is a major question.  And I still think that Gibson has more value than KO or Sully, primarily because I see them all as role players.  Just that Gibson is better.

As for the picks, #16 this year is better than #17 this year.  Number #19 this year significantly better than the Clipper pick next year and, dending on where we end up, about equal to ouur pick next year.  As for the Nets picks, who really knows.  On the one hand, those further out in the future may have more perceived value because there is at least the possibilty they suck, being further out in the future is also something that takes away from value.  In other words, all things being equal, you take picks sooner rather than later.

So, if our offer is Sully and/or KO, and #6 and #17 and Clipper next year, then I think Chicago's offer is better.  We we substitute our pick next year instead of the Clippers, then I still think Chicago's offer is slightly better. 

So, are we willing to give up KO or Sully (or both), #6, #17, Celtics 2015 first pick, AND an additional Nets pick?  That is what I think we need to better what Chicago can offer.

  I think you also have to factor in that Butler and Gibson won't help the team contend but they'll probably help the team enough that they won't get a top pick. It just seems like a wasted trade for a rebuilding team. You'd also have to consider that Sully's much younger than Gibson and I think you're underestimating the value of unprotected future picks if we chose to trade one.

Yes, does Minn want to completely tank is the question.  I have been basing my thoughts on value of the packages primarily.  As for Sully, I know people talk about his youth.  But I think his potential is so limited that he probably has already reached it.  So basically, Sully is nothing more than a role player on a good team.  Gibson, on the other hand, is a fantastic role player.  Can guard multiple positions well, hit the open shot, stays within himself, and is tough as nails.  I am thinking every good team in the league would want a Taj Gibson on their team.

The question, of course, is what Minn would want.  I continue to think that Sully, while decent, doesn't have a whole lot of value and isn't really worth trading for whether you have a good or bad team.

  Gibson isn't much of a shooter once you get him away from the basket, and I don't think it's overly likely Sully's hit his ceiling, especially considering the huge jump in his per36 scoring this year.

Yes, much of this is hinged on my view of Sully.  But come on, arguing per36 isn't very sound is it.  Of course it jumped.  He went from garbage man to a second or third option. 

And of course, we all know that numbers aren't always comparable.  Someone had to score, even on bad teams.  The question is, how much value do you add to winning.  Sully won't be a consistent inside presence because of his lack of lift.  Can he get some buckets?  Sure.  But if a team wanted to take him out of a game down low, they could.  And forget about certain matchups.  Anyone with size and decent bulk is going to give Sully lots of problems.  And extending out to the 3-point is not necessarily a good thing for him.  Decent shooter but not great. 

Defensively Sully is adequate on his man.  As for team and pick and roll and stuff like that, probably below average.  I will give you that he is a good rebounder.

So how is anything going to change for him?  Perhaps, if he lost a good deal of weight (which I hear ain't happening now), then Sully can transform his game.  But until then, Sully may be able to get numbers on a bad team, and contribute some on a good team, that is about it in my mind.

  Sully was pretty good down low when he spent more time down there as a rookie. When healthy he's a pretty good scorer, a good rebounder and a pretty good passer, and he's still young and inexperienced. People don't have to greatly improve their athleticism in order to improve as they age. They become more experienced, more consistent, and work to develop their games. Which of those things do you think Sully's incapable of?

[LooseCannon]

  Gibson isn't much of a shooter once you get him away from the basket, and I don't think it's overly likely Sully's hit his ceiling, especially considering the huge jump in his per36 scoring this year.

He's been improving.  Last season, he shot around 40% on shots ten feet and out and the Bulls feel comfortable with his mid-range jumper out of a pick and roll.  He was greatly improved last season and it would be reasonable to project that Gibson starting next season should average 16-18 points and 8-9 rebounds per game.  I could see him being like James Harden, putting in a strong performance off the bench, but having his numbers look even better once he gets into a starting role.

[cman88]

  Gibson isn't much of a shooter once you get him away from the basket, and I don't think it's overly likely Sully's hit his ceiling, especially considering the huge jump in his per36 scoring this year.

He's been improving.  Last season, he shot around 40% on shots ten feet and out and the Bulls feel comfortable with his mid-range jumper out of a pick and roll.  He was greatly improved last season and it would be reasonable to project that Gibson starting next season should average 16-18 points and 8-9 rebounds per game.  I could see him being like James Harden, putting in a strong performance off the bench, but having his numbers look even better once he gets into a starting role.

he's 29 years old. most players usually are at their ceiling by that age.

[LooseCannon]

he's 29 years old. most players usually are at their ceiling by that age.

He's a few months older than Aaron Afflalo and people love tossing out that bit about increasing his PPG every season as if they expect Afflalo to be a 20ppg next season.

In Gibson's case, it is reasonable to believe that his numbers have been limited due to his role on the team and this season he put up numbers that he has always been capable of.  Look at the slightly older Paul Millsap who was unleashed as a three-point shooter this season to earn his first All-Star appearance.

He's always taken 35-40% of his shots from ten feet or further and he's always shown the ability to make 40% of his 10-16 foot shots, he's just getting more playing time and taking more shots (going from 10.6 FGA/36 minutes over his first four seasons to 13.7 this season).  If he's hit his ceiling, he's still pretty likely to give you 15/8 as a starter.

[gpap]

Are not valuable trade pieces.  Keep reading posters begrudgingly throw one or the other in a trade scenerio like they add value.  I don't think they do.

And that, I think, is the biggest issue with any proposal we can make.  We can't offer any players beyond role players or a shaky Jeff Green.

This is what I am starting to become afraid of

[libermaniac]

The Bulls can trade Butler, Gibson, Boozer's expiring contract, the rights to Nikola Mirotic, the No. 16 and No. 19 pick in the 2014 NBA Draft and a Top 10 protected pick from the Sacramento Kings between 2015-2017.

There's not a single player/pick in that group that helps you build towards a championship team.  Only role players.  Whereas the C's can offer the #6 and some Brooklyn picks, which could definitely be top lotto picks.  Then Sully/KO vs. Butler/Gibson, etc.. come in to play.  But, the C's have much better assets when it comes to possible franchise changing players.  Hands down.