Author Topic: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot  (Read 10285 times)

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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2014, 05:43:58 PM »

Offline bleedGREENdon

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I really dont see why green couldnt play the 2, Joe johnson is just as big probbaly bigger than green and he plays the two his handles are also not that much greater than greens, they are better , but it is not like johnson has the handles of a point.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Early in the season Stevens started Green at the 2 and wallace at the 3. The team obviously didnt have sucess but I think Green Green was fine as a SG.

If the Cs can upgrade their starting lineup by adding a SF who is more talented then AB then I'm fine with Green at the 2. He will not be a all nba performer on defense at the position but should be comparable to the other bigger SGs in the league. Converting Green to SG may be the best coarse of action if the Cs get lucky and end up with Parker in the draft. By drafting Parker and resigning AB the Cs would have a talented 3 man rotation at on the wing. AB would come off the bench (get about 26 mpg) at the 2 and Green ( about 32-35 mpg) could float between 2-3. Parker would start at the 3 and play some small ball 4 (32-35 mpg). Leaving Pressy or another pure PG with 12min per game that Rondo isn't on the court and Chris Johnson to fill the remaining few wing minutes.

With time this may actually be his best fit in the NBA. What many people don't realize with Green is that he is in fact a "small 6'9". What I mean by that is he measured in at 6'7.75" tall without shoes but only has a 8'7 standing reach. By comparison Bass measured 6'6.25" W/O shoes but has a 8'10.5" reach,  Sully measured 6'7.75" w/o shoes and has a 6'9.5" reach. Lance Stephenson measured 6'4.5 but has the same 8'7" standing reach as Green. Dwyane Wade even has a 8'6' reach.

I like your basic idea but I disagree with your selective comparisons of measurements.   At the small forward position, Green is by no means 'small'.   Other than Kevin Durant (freakishly 6' 9" w/o shoes and a 7' 4.75" wingspan), there are actually very few SF's in the league who are much longer than Green (6' 7.75" w/o shoes, 7' 1.25"  wingspan).

Carmelo is only 6' 6.25" w/o shoes, with a 7' wingspan.   
Paul Pierce is 6' 6" w/o shoes.     
Lebron is 6' 7.25" w/o shoes with a 7' 0.25" wingspan.
Paul George is 6' 7.75" w/o shoes with a 6' 11.25" wingspan.

I could go on with a more exhaustive list but those names should make the point.  Green is by no means "small" for the SF position.    I'm not sure why you are including Bass and Sully, who are not SFs in the comparison.    All you are saying about Stephenson and Wade there is that they have freakishly long wingspans for SGs, not that Green is small or lacking length for an SF.

It's great that Stephenson has the same standing reach as Green.  Green's max vertical was 5" higher though...

The measurement of the top of a players head has little effect on their abilities on the court. Standing reach is a superior measurement to height.

Standing reaches of players you listed
C Anthony 8'9.5"
P Pierce " not listed"
L James 8'10.25"
P George 8' 11"


The above players are all have taller standing reaches then Greens 8'7". I previously listed Sully and Bass to show how two players of similar height to Green have greater standing reaches. My point with all this was to show that while Green is viewed as a big 6'9 SF he actually is more comparable in size to smaller 6'6-6'7 wing players. This is possibly the single biggest reason that Green struggled so much defending the 4 in the past. He simply isnt as big as perceived.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?page=&year=All&source=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=3&sort=6

take the above link and sort the SFs by standing reach, you will find that Green is in the bottom 3rd of the data base.

Also

Harden 8'7.5"
T Evans 8'8"
j Johnson 8'9"
T Allen 8'6"
J Wall 8'5.5"

I think what I'm struggling with is your language.  You keep using "size" when you mean "standing reach".

And it is simply your opinion that that is a "superior measurement" to height or lateral wingspan or other attributes.   All aspects are important in some way or another, but it seems dubious to cling to that one measure as your indicator of "size".

Especially since a big longstanding criticism of the 'standing reach' measurement at the NBA combine is that some players have purposely tanked their standing reach in order to max their vertical leap numbers.   It is highly possible that Green is one of them (max vertical leap was a ridiculous 38").

Here is an old but very useful article with a couple of useful quotes on this topic:  http://www.brewhoop.com/2008/6/22/543088/measurement-error-explorin

Quote
Thus, a player can to some extent manipulate their measurements--if they want a more impressive vertical then they can tank their standing reach, though obviously it's a tradeoff. Guards may find it particularly beneficial to inflate their verticals at the expense of standing reach, which is probably not scrutinized nearly as closely by teams. Similarly, players with reputations for being un-athletic could see value in inflating their verticals to combat those opinions--Kevin Love's 37" max vert looks rather fishy in that light.

Quote
Standing reach data varied the most from year to year. Nearly half the players in the sample had standing reaches that differed by more than an inch from year to year, and a quarter varied by 2" or more.

Defensively, Green has shown he has been very credible at defending 'big' SFs like Lebron, Carmelo and Paul George, despite his apparent disadvantage in 'standing reach'.

Green struggled with defending big 4s earlier in his career primarily due to the fact that he weighs around 230-235 lbs while most PFs in the league are a lot, LOT heavier than that.   This made him a post-up target.  This is why Doc - and Brad this season as well - made a point of keeping Green on the perimeter on D as much as possible - not allowing switches to put him on a big rolling or posting up.   On the perimeter, conversely, Green has tended to be a superior defender due to his quick feet and wingspan.

EDIT:  Added link and quote from BrewHoop article.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 07:20:29 PM by mmmmm »
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2014, 07:19:58 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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If AB had a history of  no injuries and was healthy all the time ....yeah I'd be for keeping him and paying him well.....but

Signing him ...is Murphy law ......he'll never be healthy for the Celtics .....he'll be hurt five games into hs first new contract season.

Rather pay Bayless.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2014, 07:25:32 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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If AB had a history of  no injuries and was healthy all the time ....yeah I'd be for keeping him and paying him well.....but

Signing him ...is Murphy law ......he'll never be healthy for the Celtics .....he'll be hurt five games into hs first new contract season.

Maybe it will be a no-win situation where if he signs with the Celtics he will be hurt and if he signs with another team he will average 80 games per season on that contract.
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2014, 08:55:35 PM »

Offline nzea

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One of the biggest impacts this would have is on rebounding and transition offense. Green would be able to leak out in transition more if he was a 2 because he wouldn't have the rebounding assignments a 3 has. He could shoot more and ww could put a plus rebounder at the 3.

Plus, getting Green in transition is good, just in case you've never seen a C's game the last two years.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2014, 08:59:47 PM »

Offline nzea

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Jeff Green simply does not have the ball handling skills to be a 2 guard.  After the point guard, the 2 guard should be your best ball handler.  He has inadequate ball handling skills even for a small forward, which is why he has such a difficult time creating space to get a high percentage shot. His offense consists almost exclusively of 3 pointers, foul shots, and transition baskets.  I would bet the vast majority of his points come from those 3 categories.

Rondo is maybe the most ball dominant PG in the league. The good thing is he's also the best passer in the league. So surround him with slashers and shooters and you have a good offense.

Green won't need to handle the ball that much. A SF can be the secondary ball handler if needed.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2014, 09:11:10 PM »

Offline AngryAndIrritable

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I'm quite happy to put AB into a reserve, 6th man role (draft dependent) at around 4, 4.25 mill a year but I would be really uncomfortable splashing out much more.

Green at the 2 would be an immobile turnover machine, constantly getting picked off on the drive.

Neither of these options please.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2014, 09:15:42 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Jeff Green simply does not have the ball handling skills to be a 2 guard.  After the point guard, the 2 guard should be your best ball handler.  He has inadequate ball handling skills even for a small forward, which is why he has such a difficult time creating space to get a high percentage shot. His offense consists almost exclusively of 3 pointers, foul shots, and transition baskets.  I would bet the vast majority of his points come from those 3 categories.

Rondo is maybe the most ball dominant PG in the league. The good thing is he's also the best passer in the league. So surround him with slashers and shooters and you have a good offense.

Green won't need to handle the ball that much. A SF can be the secondary ball handler if needed.

Gee, where have I seen that combination (Ball-dominant PG, Ball-confident SF & Off-ball SG) used before?  Oh wait, yeah, here:


Yeah, that works for me!

(And yes, I know Ray used to be very ball-dominant in his early days.  We didn't use him that way at all, though.  And neither does Miami.)
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2014, 09:27:00 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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If AB had a history of  no injuries and was healthy all the time ....yeah I'd be for keeping him and paying him well.....but

Signing him ...is Murphy law ......he'll never be healthy for the Celtics .....he'll be hurt five games into hs first new contract season.

Maybe it will be a no-win situation where if he signs with the Celtics he will be hurt and if he signs with another team he will average 80 games per season on that contract.

That's how I see it playing out......people get better when they leave Boston

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2014, 10:57:53 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I'm quite happy to put AB into a reserve, 6th man role (draft dependent) at around 4, 4.25 mill a year but I would be really uncomfortable splashing out much more.

Green at the 2 would be an immobile turnover machine, constantly getting picked off on the drive.

Neither of these options please.

I'd rather have Bradley starting at the 2 and Green in a multi-positional sixth-man role.
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2014, 11:01:25 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Jeff Green simply does not have the ball handling skills to be a 2 guard.  After the point guard, the 2 guard should be your best ball handler.  He has inadequate ball handling skills even for a small forward, which is why he has such a difficult time creating space to get a high percentage shot. His offense consists almost exclusively of 3 pointers, foul shots, and transition baskets.  I would bet the vast majority of his points come from those 3 categories.

Rondo is maybe the most ball dominant PG in the league. The good thing is he's also the best passer in the league. So surround him with slashers and shooters and you have a good offense.

Green won't need to handle the ball that much. A SF can be the secondary ball handler if needed.

Gee, where have I seen that combination (Ball-dominant PG, Ball-confident SF & Off-ball SG) used before?  Oh wait, yeah, here:


Yeah, that works for me!

(And yes, I know Ray used to be very ball-dominant in his early days.  We didn't use him that way at all, though.  And neither does Miami.)

If Green suddenly learns how to move off the ball like Ray Allen did / does (one of the main reasons he's stayed good for so long), and our big men suddenly learn to set screens like KG and Perk, then it'll totally work.
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2014, 08:34:01 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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I'd rather do the complete opposite - move Green up a slot in to PF and trade Sully.

At PF Jeff Green has the ball handling, speed and shooting range to murder opposing bigs.  At SF he can occasionally create matchups. At SG he will be a step behind every night, as he'll be constantly held back by his poor ball handling and his quickness will no longer be an advantage at the SG spot.

Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2014, 11:29:59 AM »

Offline PhoSita

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I'd rather do the complete opposite - move Green up a slot in to PF and trade Sully.

At PF Jeff Green has the ball handling, speed and shooting range to murder opposing bigs.  At SF he can occasionally create matchups. At SG he will be a step behind every night, as he'll be constantly held back by his poor ball handling and his quickness will no longer be an advantage at the SG spot.

Jeff Green is not a power forward.  Unless he's playing next to a center like Dwight Howard, he should not be at the 4.  I think his first 3-4 seasons in the league showed that.
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Re: Not resigning AB and playing Green at the SG spot
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2014, 11:45:14 AM »

Offline Donoghus

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The idea of Wiggins/Green on the wing is very intriguing.  Offensively, that could be pretty fun to watch.  Add a healthy Rondo to the mix and extremely fun.    Celtics would still lack an interior presence which would be concerning. 



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