Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?

[D.o.s.]

Here's what I'm taking from many of you on this argument:

"Rondo hasn't proven he can lead a team to title contention [even though he actually has], therefore we'll assume that he can't.

It hasn't been proven that Westbrook can't lead a team to title contention, therefore we'll assume that he can."

I'm sure I'm getting that wrong, though.

For a self-proclaimed English major you're doing gpap some pretty serious disservice with your reading comprehension.

[Snakehead]

I'm getting plenty of good info watching Westbrook sink OKC this postseason.

[D.o.s.]

I'm getting plenty of good info watching Westbrook sink OKC this postseason.

SMH. I like your posts, but the Thunder's problems are way deeper than Westbrook jacking shots.

[Snakehead]

I'm getting plenty of good info watching Westbrook sink OKC this postseason.

SMH. I like your posts, but the Thunder's problems are way deeper than Westbrook jacking shots.

I agree there is more to it, but the guy just doesn't fit a team with Durant on it.  He has top 10 talent but they need a PG.  He is a selfish player and I just wouldn't want to build my team around that type of PG.

He's obviously won playoff games but I just don't see what there is to defend with how he has played in this series.  They throw double teams at him off pick and rolls because they know he won't even look to pass.  Grizzlies defense really swarms him because they know he won't find the open man.

If you're giving me a choice between the two players I pick Rondo and there isn't any doubt in my mind about it.  I like passing PGs (and Rondo is that, plus very clutch) and I get my scoring from other positions.

[Celtics18]

Here's what I'm taking from many of you on this argument:

"Rondo hasn't proven he can lead a team to title contention [even though he actually has], therefore we'll assume that he can't.

It hasn't been proven that Westbrook can't lead a team to title contention, therefore we'll assume that he can."

I'm sure I'm getting that wrong, though.

For a self-proclaimed English major you're doing gpap some pretty serious disservice with your reading comprehension.

I did admit that maybe I had it wrong. 

[D.o.s.]

I'm getting plenty of good info watching Westbrook sink OKC this postseason.

SMH. I like your posts, but the Thunder's problems are way deeper than Westbrook jacking shots.

I agree there is more to it, but the guy just doesn't fit a team with Durant on it.  He has top 10 talent but they need a PG.  He is a selfish player and I just wouldn't want to build my team around that type of PG.

He's obviously won playoff games but I just don't see what there is to defend with how he has played in this series.  They throw double teams at him off pick and rolls because they know he won't even look to pass.  Grizzlies defense really swarms him because they know he won't find the open man.

If you're giving me a choice between the two players I pick Rondo and there isn't any doubt in my mind about it.  I like passing PGs (and Rondo is that, plus very clutch) and I get my scoring from other positions.

I'm with you, but I actually think that the key to the Thunder's domination has been their pressure on Kevin Durant -- he's been playing worse than he ever has in the post season. The problem with Westbrook and the Thunder is that as a team they don't have an answer to "oh, hey, we're going to neutralize Kevin Durant. Go ahead and try to win." It's the opposite of the old LeBron strategy, where teams would let him get his and just shut everyone else down.

[D.o.s.]

Here's what I'm taking from many of you on this argument:

"Rondo hasn't proven he can lead a team to title contention [even though he actually has], therefore we'll assume that he can't.

It hasn't been proven that Westbrook can't lead a team to title contention, therefore we'll assume that he can."

I'm sure I'm getting that wrong, though.

For a self-proclaimed English major you're doing gpap some pretty serious disservice with your reading comprehension.

I did admit that maybe I had it wrong.

[Snakehead]

I'm getting plenty of good info watching Westbrook sink OKC this postseason.

SMH. I like your posts, but the Thunder's problems are way deeper than Westbrook jacking shots.

I agree there is more to it, but the guy just doesn't fit a team with Durant on it.  He has top 10 talent but they need a PG.  He is a selfish player and I just wouldn't want to build my team around that type of PG.

He's obviously won playoff games but I just don't see what there is to defend with how he has played in this series.  They throw double teams at him off pick and rolls because they know he won't even look to pass.  Grizzlies defense really swarms him because they know he won't find the open man.

If you're giving me a choice between the two players I pick Rondo and there isn't any doubt in my mind about it.  I like passing PGs (and Rondo is that, plus very clutch) and I get my scoring from other positions.

I'm with you, but I actually think that the key to the Thunder's domination has been their pressure on Kevin Durant -- he's been playing worse than he ever has in the post season. The problem with Westbrook and the Thunder is that as a team they don't have an answer to "oh, hey, we're going to neutralize Kevin Durant. Go ahead and try to win." It's the opposite of the old LeBron strategy, where teams would let him get his and just shut everyone else down.

I do agree with that.  I think it's that, plus also "swarm Westbrook" and they are, like I say, giving him the ability to pass to their bigs especially off pick and rolls but he pretty much refuses to do so.  They are getting basically doubled up in points in the paint for the whole series.

I think TA has been really amazing on defense.  Sure, that's always been him, but to me it's been another level.  He gets in the passing lanes when his man throws the pass.  He's everywhere and he's just killing Durant.  Plus particularly Gasol off help when he tries to get into the lane.

I think it's pretty much inexcusable how little of a role Ibaka has played on offense.  Yes I do think Brooks should take blame there (trust me, don't think much of him as a coach) but I think Westbrook is just a very unwilling passer.  Yes, last night he gets 10 assists but it's practically easy to do that with how the defense is playing him and Durant.  And still he takes 31 shots.

The defense on Durant may be the most key, but the way to counter that and win would be for Westbrook to play smart basketball.  And he basically refuses to do so.

[D.o.s.]

Right -- I think there are people who are fundamentally opposed to a point guard taking 31 shots. That's whatever to me, it's obviously a big deal to some other posters. To my mind, being a scorer isn't a position based skill, and the Thunder's offense is predicated around two scorers. One of them happens to nominally be described point guard. It happens.

To me, the biggest sign that it's bigger than RW is that the Thunder have been playing very similarly (per the eye test, haven't looked at the numbers) when Reggie Jackson takes over for him. Jackson's shot better than Westbrook, but my supposition -- if someone wants to look up the numbers, I won't have time for a bit -- is that their per 36 shot attempts and usage rates would be pretty close.

[Moranis]

Who is Westbrook supposed to pass to (not with standing the fact that is AST% is a respectable 36.6 in the playoffs)?  Maybe it is Perkins who has a turnover % of 33.9.  Maybe it is Ibaka who shoots occasionally but has a USG% of just 13.7 (meaning he usually just passes it to someone else).  Maybe it is Caron Butler, Derek Fisher, or Thabo Sefolosha all of which have a worse FG% than Westbrook does. 

Other factors, Westbrook has the third highest RB% on the team behind only Ibaka and Perkins and is leading the team in offensive rebounds (and is tied with Durant for second overall).  He has has nearly twice as many assists as Durant. 

Westbrook is averaging 25.7 points, 9.8 rebounds, and 7.0 assists in the series.  What more could he really be doing?

[D.o.s.]

Making more of his shots and/or passing more, is mostly what I've been reading.
 

[BballTim]

Right -- I think there are people who are fundamentally opposed to a point guard taking 31 shots. That's whatever to me, it's obviously a big deal to some other posters. To my mind, being a scorer isn't a position based skill, and the Thunder's offense is predicated around two scorers. One of them happens to nominally be described point guard. It happens.

  I could describe your point as "the only thing in basketball that matters is scoring, and it doesn't make a lick of difference how efficiently that scoring is". Not sure if that's supposed to make me feel better or convince people I'm winning the argument. Try it like this: Russell's 3rd in the league in fga/game in the playoffs, 26 shots a game. There are 52 players in the postseason that are averaging 10 or more fga/game. Out of those 52 people Westbrook is 51st in both fg% and efg%. Yet here you are trying to convince people that the only reason people criticize the number of shots he takes is because he's a point guard.

To me, the biggest sign that it's bigger than RW is that the Thunder have been playing very similarly (per the eye test, haven't looked at the numbers) when Reggie Jackson takes over for him. Jackson's shot better than Westbrook, but my supposition -- if someone wants to look up the numbers, I won't have time for a bit -- is that their per 36 shot attempts and usage rates would be pretty close.

   Westbroook's averaging double the shots per 36 that Jackson is in the playoffs and his league-leading usage rate (37%) is quite a bit higher than Jackson's 20%.

[D.o.s.]

TP for the numbers. I'll ignore the autopilot mis-characterization.

[BballTim]

TP for the numbers. I'll ignore the autopilot mis-characterization.

   Yes, but will you refrain from it?

[D.o.s.]

I could go back and quote to you all the skin deep analysis about Westbrook's shooting, but giant blocks of text are a no-no with the new layout.

There have been a few really good posts saying he shoots too much relative to his efficiency. You've even made some of those posts -- they're still in the minority.