Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?

[PhoSita]

Right, I'd agree with that. Whether or not Westbrook could adjust his game to another offensive system is totally hypothetical at this point.

But don't let me stop anyone from telling me that a point guard should pass, daggnamit, because that's what point guards do and that things were better back in your day and why isn't anything made in America any more?

I think a pure passer might be more capable of finding other players on the Thunder when they are open.  But those players would still have to make shots, and there just aren't many shot-makers on that team other than Westbrook and Durant. 

  During the season Thabo had an eFG% of 46% on catch and shoots. Jones, Lamb, Fisher, Butler, Ibaka, Jackson and Perk all had eFG% of 50% or higher in catch and shoots. What you're saying isn't really accurate.

During the season, Durant had an EFG% of 56%, while Westbrook had an EFG% of 48%.

This isn't the regular season, it's the playoffs, and the opponent is the Grizzlies.  I'd guess the EFG% for most of those players would be different if that's where the Thunder were shifting the offensive burden.

The effective field goal percentage for those looks reflects the circumstances -- i.e. those shots were taken in relatively low volume, and while Westbrook and Durant were scoring at a high percentage.

[BballTim]

I gotta say, now with OKC on the verge of eliminiation, this actually might be a possibility.

I mean I think most GMs would agree that Westbrook is a better player but at what point does OKC not consider the idea of shaking things up if they can't win a title with the 2nd best player in the league in Durant?

What about something like this

Celts get Westbrook, Perry Jones and Hasheem Thabeet
OKC gets Rondo, Jeff Green

Oklahoma City would do a lot better than that if they traded Westbrook on the open market.  Some trades I think they could potentially make

with Lakers (during free agency)
Westbrook, Perkins for LAL #1 (whomever they drafted), Nash, Pau (sign and traded - something like 3yrs, 35 million)

with Rockets
Westbrook for Parsons, Asik, Jones, a couple of firsts

with TWolves
Westbrook, Perkins for Pekovic, Rubio, Barea/Moute

with Pelicans
Westbrook for Holiday, Anderson (pending physicals for both)

with Cavs
Westbrook for Irving, filler

I'm sure there are plenty of other realistic trades out there where OKC can move Westbrook and get a much better offer than anything Boston would realistically offer (i.e. I can't see Boston moving both Rondo and the high 1st for Westbrook).

  Those aren't really better trades than the Celts deal.

[D.o.s.]

  One way of re-wording what you wrote is that Westbrook needs to take so many shots because he's not really capable of generating more quality scoring looks for his teammates. We agree on this.

10/10 for effort.

You could also say that the Thunder don't have players that are worth creating quality scoring looks for beyond Durant and Westbrook. We agree on this.

Right, I'd agree with that. Whether or not Westbrook could adjust his game to another offensive system is totally hypothetical at this point.

But don't let me stop anyone from telling me that a point guard should pass, daggnamit, because that's what point guards do and that things were better back in your day and why isn't anything made in America any more?

Oh man, that's gold.

[PhoSita]

  One way of re-wording what you wrote is that Westbrook needs to take so many shots because he's not really capable of generating more quality scoring looks for his teammates. We agree on this.

I'll just refer you to what D.o.s. said.

[D.o.s.]

But don't let me stop anyone from telling me that a point guard should pass, daggnamit, because that's what point guards do and that things were better back in your day and why isn't anything made in America any more?

  That's not what people are saying, that's just the level of thought that you give to the points that you disagree with. Plenty of people here can read things like "Westbrook has a TS% of 42% and a significantly higher usage rate than anyone else in the playoffs" and make connections that don't involve our eroding manufacturing base.

 

I (fairly obviously) think it's overblown. Like Moranis said -- this thread got bumped to lament Westbrook's chucking when he just dropped a  30-13-10 with 4 turnovers and going 9-for-9 when KD posted a 26-8-5 that included 6 turnovers and shooting 50% from the free throw line... but no one's talking about that.

There's also the fact that KD posted a horrendous offensive Rtg in that game (87), thanks largely to tony allen,  and a horrible defensive rating (111) -- both of which are nowhere close to Westbrook's 108 and 107, and neither of which have anything to do with Westbrook shooting a lot -- which he does, to be sure. No one's disputing that.

Missed a stat -- Westbrook also had a 57% AST% last night, compared to a 10% Turnover%.

[BballTim]

Right, I'd agree with that. Whether or not Westbrook could adjust his game to another offensive system is totally hypothetical at this point.

But don't let me stop anyone from telling me that a point guard should pass, daggnamit, because that's what point guards do and that things were better back in your day and why isn't anything made in America any more?

I think a pure passer might be more capable of finding other players on the Thunder when they are open.  But those players would still have to make shots, and there just aren't many shot-makers on that team other than Westbrook and Durant. 

  During the season Thabo had an eFG% of 46% on catch and shoots. Jones, Lamb, Fisher, Butler, Ibaka, Jackson and Perk all had eFG% of 50% or higher in catch and shoots. What you're saying isn't really accurate.

During the season, Durant had an EFG% of 56%, while Westbrook had an EFG% of 48%.

This isn't the regular season, it's the playoffs, and the opponent is the Grizzlies.  I'd guess the EFG% for most of those players would be different if that's where the Thunder were shifting the offensive burden.

  I was talking about catch and shoot numbers. You can argue that there's more pressure in the playoffs but open shots are open shots. You claimed that nobody on the team aside from RW and KD can make shots. Clearly that's not true. They just don't get that many opportunities and that makes it easier to defense KD and RW, hence the lower fg% for those two. The Grizzlies were 8th in defense btw. Good team, not what they have been in the past though.

[BballTim]

  One way of re-wording what you wrote is that Westbrook needs to take so many shots because he's not really capable of generating more quality scoring looks for his teammates. We agree on this.

10/10 for effort.

You could also say that the Thunder don't have players that are worth creating quality scoring looks for beyond Durant and Westbrook. We agree on this.

  I just pointed out that there are plenty of players on OKC with decent/good catch and shoot percentages. You probably interpreted it as "vinyl sounds better than cds do".

[footey]

Would we do the deal if OKC insisted on Sully packaged with Rondo for Westbrook?

[BballTim]

But don't let me stop anyone from telling me that a point guard should pass, daggnamit, because that's what point guards do and that things were better back in your day and why isn't anything made in America any more?

  That's not what people are saying, that's just the level of thought that you give to the points that you disagree with. Plenty of people here can read things like "Westbrook has a TS% of 42% and a significantly higher usage rate than anyone else in the playoffs" and make connections that don't involve our eroding manufacturing base.

 

I (fairly obviously) think it's overblown. Like Moranis said -- this thread got bumped to lament Westbrook's chucking when he just dropped a  30-13-10 with 4 turnovers and going 9-for-9 when KD posted a 26-8-5 that included 6 turnovers and shooting 50% from the free throw line... but no one's talking about that.

There's also the fact that KD posted a horrendous offensive Rtg in that game (87), thanks largely to tony allen,  and a horrible defensive rating (111) -- both of which are nowhere close to Westbrook's 108 and 107, and neither of which have anything to do with Westbrook shooting a lot -- which he does, to be sure. No one's disputing that.

Missed a stat -- Westbrook also had a 57% AST% last night, compared to a 10% Turnover%.

   Missed another stat. It's just 1 game.

[PhoSita]

  I was talking about catch and shoot numbers. You can argue that there's more pressure in the playoffs but open shots are open shots. You claimed that nobody on the team aside from RW and KD can make shots. Clearly that's not true. They just don't get that many opportunities and that makes it easier to defense KD and RW, hence the lower fg% for those two. The Grizzlies were 8th in defense btw. Good team, not what they have been in the past though.

Open shots are open shots.  You're right that there are players on the Thunder who can hit easy, open shots.  I guess we disagree on whether or not those opportunities are there for the Thunder right now, and how often.

The Grizzlies have stepped up their defense for the playoffs, I'd say.  At least against the Thunder, they're well equipped to play shut down defense.  It's a terrible matchup for the Thunder.

I just don't think the Thunder have the kind of deadly, knock-down shooters to truly a punish a defense for helping onto Durant or Westbrook too much.  Compare the shooters on the Thunder to those the Heat have placed around James and Wade.  I don't think it's really close.

[D.o.s.]

  One way of re-wording what you wrote is that Westbrook needs to take so many shots because he's not really capable of generating more quality scoring looks for his teammates. We agree on this.

10/10 for effort.

You could also say that the Thunder don't have players that are worth creating quality scoring looks for beyond Durant and Westbrook. We agree on this.

  I just pointed out that there are plenty of players on OKC with decent/good catch and shoot percentages. You probably interpreted it as "vinyl sounds better than cds do".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI7SIo_FNo8

edit - Why has the embed gone weird?

Would we do the deal if OKC insisted on Sully packaged with Rondo for Westbrook?

Just Westbrook? No thanks.

[PhoSita]

  One way of re-wording what you wrote is that Westbrook needs to take so many shots because he's not really capable of generating more quality scoring looks for his teammates. We agree on this.

10/10 for effort.

You could also say that the Thunder don't have players that are worth creating quality scoring looks for beyond Durant and Westbrook. We agree on this.

  I just pointed out that there are plenty of players on OKC with decent/good catch and shoot percentages. You probably interpreted it as "vinyl sounds better than cds do".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AI7SIo_FNo8

edit - Why has the embed gone weird?

Would we do the deal if OKC insisted on Sully packaged with Rondo for Westbrook?

Just Westbrook? No thanks.

If they offered us Westbrook for Rondo + Sully and we got to keep both of our 1st round picks this year?  Hells yes.


For the record, I think Westbrook would be at his best on a team with a secondary ball-handler in the backcourt -- a setup like Bledsoe and Dragic in Phoenix, or Calderon and Ellis in Dallas.

A Westbrook / Marcus Smart backcourt could be outrageously fun (though terribly messy at times . . . probably need a better shooter next to RW).

[D.o.s.]

Missed a stat -- Westbrook also had a 57% AST% last night, compared to a 10% Turnover%.

   Missed another stat. It's just 1 game.

Right, but this thread was bumped because of Westbrook's awful game. His terrible, terrible game where he went 30-13-10 with 4 turnovers, 9/9 from the free throw line, and posted an AST% of 57% while playing 48 minutes. On 31 shots.

Call it a hunch, but if we were talking about Rondo I don't believe that you'd be saying "it's just one game." You might be telling me about why 8 track tapes are, in fact, the best.

[PhoSita]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N90C-mdaVzQ

Clearly the Celtics lost this game because Rondo focused too much on scoring and didn't look for the assist enough.

 

[BballTim]

Missed a stat -- Westbrook also had a 57% AST% last night, compared to a 10% Turnover%.

   Missed another stat. It's just 1 game.

Right, but this thread was bumped because of Westbrook's awful game. His terrible, terrible game where he went 30-13-10 with 4 turnovers, 9/9 from the free throw line, and posted an AST% of 57% while playing 48 minutes. On 31 shots.

Call it a hunch, but if we were talking about Rondo I don't believe that you'd be saying "it's just one game." You might be telling me about why 8 track tapes are, in fact, the best.

  I guess your interesting interpretation of opposing views extends beyond this thread. Of course I'd say it's only one game. Just like when he played so well in February and my response was that he hadn't really turned the corner like people were saying and he was still going to have good and bad stretches when he recovers. Some people mischaracterize my posts often enough that they actually believe that I post that kind of nonsense.