Say OKC gets booted , would they trade Westbrook for Rondo then ? and would you?

[D.o.s.]

  You'd have to wonder how many of Yao's votes came from China. And look at this year's Lakers team, I think you're undercutting your whole "fans are fickle and won't vote for players on bad teams" argument. I'm somewhat under the impression that you made your original claims based on having no idea how Rondo and Westbrook generally fared in the voting. In any case, it's probably more likely that Rondo gets voted  onto an all-star team than Westbrook because he's done so before and Westbrook hasn't come close to it. Good luck with that claim.

 I think my point with Kobe wasn't so clear: Kobe's all-star votes remained constant despite his knee injury because he's Kobe Bryant -- anyone that's not at that level of global superstardom is going to see a sharp decline in votes, exactly the kind of decline we saw from Rondo between 13 and 14. If Rondo comes back healthy, but the Celtics win another 25 games, I don't see Rondo making it in with fan votes.

You might be right about Westbrook, though: I didn't factor in the sheer number of really good, really visible point guards out West.

[D.o.s.]

Westbrook is also an All-Star. He also played better defense last season. Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo.

Explain "generates similar amounts of offense." Be detailed when you say "inefficient" Otherwise the first is a throwaway statement and the second is basically "westbrook shoots too much", which isn't anything beyond a subjective measuring of what you think a point guard should be doing presented as an objective reason why Rondo would improve the team's offense.


John Stockton would definitely make the Thunder better. Rondo's no John Stockton, he's not even the best point guard in the league. I still like his game more than Westbrook's.

You have been very strict about insisting that posters are "showing their work."  Could you please show the work that suggest that Westbrook "played better defense last season" than Rondo and that "Westbrook is much more likely to make another All-Star team before Rondo."

Sure -- Westbrook posted an individual defensive rating of 102 and had a defensive win share of 2.3 this year, while Rondo had a DRtg of 107 and a defensive wins share of 1.0


Notice the difference between that and "do you even watch basketball? Obviously Westbrook had a better year than Rondo, that's like saying Spiderman shoots better webs than The Human Torch!"

As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall.

I'm also pretty amused that almost everyone else seems to be happy to provide numbers, regardless of which side you fall on in this debate. I'm not asking them to show their work, you know?

Right, but when you repeatedly show the work and it becomes clear you're dealing with selective reading vision that sorta leads you to the super hero comparisons.

BTW I completely accept that Spiderman shoots better webs than the Human Torch. I do not require you to show your work on that.  Also Rondo is a better passer than Westbrook. Being a better passer helps your teammates.

Strong contender for the 2014 unintentional irony awards. 

No one's disputing that Rondo isn't a better passer, or that being a better passer isn't good for teammates. The issue, I think, is that being a good passer isn't only way to help your teammates.

[Celtics18]

I think that Rondo's D will improve with better teammates, for sure. As to the All-Star thing:

 All-Star Votes from last year:

 1. Dwyane Wade (Mia) 929,542
2. Kyrie Irving (Cle) 860,221
3. John Wall (Was) 393,129
4. Derrick Rose (Chi) 359,546
5. Ray Allen (Mia) 250,909
6. Rajon Rondo (Bos) 174,654
http://www.insidehoops.com/all-star-voting-results.shtml#oOVvlHU0ZabQuzpu.99

West Coast:
 1. Stephen Curry (GS) 1,047,281
 2. Kobe Bryant (LAL) 988,884
3. Chris Paul (LAC) 804,309
 4. Jeremy Lin (Hou) 628,818
5. James Harden (Hou) 470,381
6. Russell Westbrook (OKC) 317,338


And 2012:
Derrick Rose (Chi) 1,514,723
Dwyane Wade (Mia) 1,334,223;
Rajon Rondo (Bos) 547,110;
Ray Allen (Bos) 382,147;
Deron Williams (NJN) 208,697;
Jose Calderon (Tor) 132,167;
Richard Hamilton (Chi) 111,368;
John Wall (Was) 96,606;
Kyrie Irving (Cle) 96,346;
Joe Johnson (Atl) 66,145.

http://www.nba.com/2012/allstar/2012/02/02/starters-release/index.html

Pretty much any player's fanbase is predicated on them being on a winning team. Rondo's no different, especially when you're talking about something as fickle as the all-star voting process.

  That seems reasonable if you don't understand that not playing until Jan 16th because of a knee injury (and not playing decent ball until February) will have an impact on voting. The Celts were a .500 or so team in 2013 and Rondo was voted a starter. Fans aren't as fickle as you think.

That's true, he pulled down 900,000 something votes in 2013. However, to take that in a different direction Kobe Bryant was voted in as a starter this year despite his knee injury -- as was Yao Ming a few years back. Injured players get voted in to the All-Star Game all the time despite, you know, not being able to play.

I submit that Rondo's spike and fall in popularity over that span has more to do with the Celtics officially closing the window on the KG/Pierce era -- and my guess is that Rondo will be much closer to the ~150 thousand votes he got this year than the ~900 thousand votes he got in 2013.

Go to BasketballReference, click on the section called "More" in the menu, under "All Star Games" there's a section entitled "Voting."  There you can easily find the All Star starters voting for each season.

You will see that for whatever reason, Russell Westbrook has not done particularly well in the fan voting.  He's never finished above fifth among Western Conference guards.  Rondo, on the other hand, has finished 2nd in voting for Eastern conference guards once, and he's finished third twice. 

That doesn't make Rondo a better player, but it makes your claim that Westbrook is a shoo-in for the All Star game next year while Rondo has very little shot seem dubious and misinformed.

[BballTim]

  You'd have to wonder how many of Yao's votes came from China. And look at this year's Lakers team, I think you're undercutting your whole "fans are fickle and won't vote for players on bad teams" argument. I'm somewhat under the impression that you made your original claims based on having no idea how Rondo and Westbrook generally fared in the voting. In any case, it's probably more likely that Rondo gets voted  onto an all-star team than Westbrook because he's done so before and Westbrook hasn't come close to it. Good luck with that claim.

 I think my point with Kobe wasn't so clear: Kobe's all-star votes remained constant despite his knee injury because he's Kobe Bryant -- anyone that's not at that level of global superstardom is going to see a sharp decline in votes, exactly the kind of decline we saw from Rondo between 13 and 14. If Rondo comes back healthy, but the Celtics win another 25 games, I don't see Rondo making it in with fan votes.

  Kobe's not really an example of that though. He finished 2nd in the voting, a few years ago he was getting close to double what any other guard in the west was getting. He's seen a significant decline in voting since he was out with injuries for so long, just like Rondo.

[D.o.s.]

Go to BasketballReference, click on the section called "More" in the menu, under "All Star Games" there's a section entitled "Voting."  There you can easily find the All Star starters voting for each season.

You will see that for whatever reason, Russell Westbrook has not done particularly well in the fan voting.  He's never finished above fifth among Western Conference guards.  Rondo, on the other hand, has finished 2nd in voting for Eastern conference guards once, and he's finished third twice. 

That doesn't make Rondo a better player, but it makes your claim that Westbrook is a shoo-in for the All Star game next year while Rondo has very little shot seem dubious and misinformed.

That's interesting that you didn't quote my other post:

If Rondo comes back healthy, but the Celtics win another 25 games, I don't see Rondo making it in with fan votes.

You might be right about Westbrook, though: I didn't factor in the sheer number of really good, really visible point guards out West.

  You'd have to wonder how many of Yao's votes came from China. And look at this year's Lakers team, I think you're undercutting your whole "fans are fickle and won't vote for players on bad teams" argument. I'm somewhat under the impression that you made your original claims based on having no idea how Rondo and Westbrook generally fared in the voting. In any case, it's probably more likely that Rondo gets voted  onto an all-star team than Westbrook because he's done so before and Westbrook hasn't come close to it. Good luck with that claim.

 I think my point with Kobe wasn't so clear: Kobe's all-star votes remained constant despite his knee injury because he's Kobe Bryant -- anyone that's not at that level of global superstardom is going to see a sharp decline in votes, exactly the kind of decline we saw from Rondo between 13 and 14. If Rondo comes back healthy, but the Celtics win another 25 games, I don't see Rondo making it in with fan votes.

  Kobe's not really an example of that though. He finished 2nd in the voting, a few years ago he was getting close to double what any other guard in the west was getting. He's seen a significant decline in voting since he was out with injuries for so long, just like Rondo.

I guess the difference between 1.5 million and 900,000 doesn't seem quite as massive as 900,000 to 150,000 when we're looking how likely it is for a player to make it to the all-star game on fan votes to me.

[Celtics18]

Great.

I'm glad to see you have back-pedaled considerably from this statement:

"As for the All-Star Game -- Rondo could make it as a reserve, but Westbrook will be a starter, and the East looks to be seriously crowded at the point guard between Irving, Williams, and Wall."

[D.o.s.]

Admitting I overestimated Westbrook's appeal is backpedalling?
 

[Celtics18]

Admitting I overestimated Westbrook's appeal is backpedalling?
 

Yes.  Smiley face.

[D.o.s.]

Adorable. Tell me more about how the Celtics were supposed to win 35 games and make the 8th seed?

[Celtics18]

Adorable. Tell me more about how the Celtics were supposed to win 35 games and make the 8th seed?

I was wrong.  Rub it in, why don't you?

[D.o.s.]

It's not about rubbing anything in -- it's about the fact that no one has a perfect track record.

[Celtics18]

Here, have a Tommy point.

[D.o.s.]

Backatchya. 

[PhoSita]

What can be said for sure is that in the past few seasons Westbrook has been a part of some of the most offensively potent 5 man units in the league.  Rondo has not.

  Sounds pretty definitive. I mean players like Fisher, Sefalosha, Perk and Collison have been part of great offenses when players like Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol and Greg Monroe haven't.

The point is that it's not very definitive.  But there's very little in the way of convincing proof that Rondo is such a boon for an offense, while Westbrook is such a detriment to one. 

I can look at the big picture results, though, and say that if these assertions about Rondo being so much better for an offense are true, we haven't seen him actually lead a prolific -- or even very effective -- offense for an extended period of time.

What I know -- for whatever it's worth -- is that Westbrook has been a key part of a deadly offensive machine for the past few years, while Rondo's team has regularly been a below average if not outright bad offensive team for much of his career.




At his best, Steve Nash was at the helm of some of the most potent offensive squads in the history of the league.  I think many of the positive things that have been said in this thread about the impact of having a great passer probably applied to Steve Nash.  Steve Nash seemed to improve the shooting of his teammates every time he stepped onto the court.  I'm not discounting the idea that a great passer can be the focal point of a deadly offense.

There is evidence -- much of which has been recounted in this thread -- that Rondo has had a positive impact on the scoring efficiency of his teammates.  However, Rondo has yet to be the focal point of a strong offensive team. 

The theory that Rondo could elevate a team of lesser talents (or a team like OKC with one or two greater talents and a lot of lesser ones) via his passing alone makes some sense -- but the bottom line is that as of right now it's nothing more than a theory.

[BballTim]

What can be said for sure is that in the past few seasons Westbrook has been a part of some of the most offensively potent 5 man units in the league.  Rondo has not.

  Sounds pretty definitive. I mean players like Fisher, Sefalosha, Perk and Collison have been part of great offenses when players like Kyrie Irving, Mike Conley, Marc Gasol and Greg Monroe haven't.

The point is that it's not very definitive.  But there's very little in the way of convincing proof that Rondo is such a boon for an offense, while Westbrook is such a detriment to one. 

I can look at the big picture results, though, and say that if these assertions about Rondo being so much better for an offense are true, we haven't seen him actually lead a prolific -- or even very effective -- offense for an extended period of time.

What I know -- for whatever it's worth -- is that Westbrook has been a key part of a deadly offensive machine for the past few years, while Rondo's team has regularly been a below average if not outright bad offensive team for much of his career.




At his best, Steve Nash was at the helm of some of the most potent offensive squads in the history of the league.  I think many of the positive things that have been said in this thread about the impact of having a great passer probably applied to Steve Nash.  Steve Nash seemed to improve the shooting of his teammates every time he stepped onto the court.  I'm not discounting the idea that a great passer can be the focal point of a deadly offense.

  At some point in time you'd have to consider things like teammates and speed/style of play. But beyond that Rondo's led 4 teams that were top 5 in the league in fg%, including teams that were 1st and 2nd in the league. 3 of those teams had a higher fg% than Phoenix did in either of Nash's mvp seasons. That's pretty impressive for a team that plays mainly halfcourt basketball and doesn't have much in the way of inside scoring. Rondo's a great passer who gets his teammates good looks at the basket, and that leads to high fg%. We've seen that for years.

  You're basically knocking him because we haven't had any decent inside scorers, didn't have as many 3 point shooters on the roster as other teams, and (most importantly) was on a team that didn't rebound well on offense.