I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...

[Celtics18]

Been agreeing with and supporting CelticS18 al season long regarding his stance. Everything he said in this thread, I agree with completely, so I will just leave it at that. TP C18

Thanks, Nick.  TP to you as well. 

[indeedproceed]

Saying 'Cleveland Drafted LeBron and won exactly nothing' is A) disingenuous and B) more of a systemic failure within the Cavs organization than any fault with a high draft pick.

It seems to me that drafting a high pick is a much safer idea than waiting around for an upset superstar, especially since there don't seem to be many on the horizon in the next 2-3 years.

Such a good, commonly overlooked point.

[Quetzalcoatl]

If we were being patient, we could have such a monster team in 3 years.  Lottery pick this year, lottery pick next year, Clips pick, maybe a Philly 1st rounder, a potential Nets lottery pick in 2016 and then another one in both 2017 if we switch and 2018.  Basically all of our bad contracts will be gone.  If we don't do some panic Kevin Love trade or something like that, we could be set up for a real dynasty. I am really starting to warm up to trading Rondo for a good young player + a pick or two.  He is a great piece, but too old for us to realistically keep around.

[nickagneta]

If we were being patient, we could have such a monster team in 3 years.  Lottery pick this year, lottery pick next year, Clips pick, maybe a Philly 1st rounder, a potential Nets lottery pick in 2016 and then another one in both 2017 if we switch and 2018.  Basically all of our bad contracts will be gone.  If we don't do some panic Kevin Love trade or something like that, we could be set up for a real dynasty. I am really starting to warm up to trading Rondo for a good young player + a pick or two.  He is a great piece, but too old for us to realistically keep around.

Lots of coulds in this statement.

I really think even with all those picks, the C's most likely will still be a pretty poor team in 2 to 3 years. Youth doesn't win games in this league. The OKC model of rebuilding needs to have a lot of things go perfectly right to get a bunch of teenagers and early 20-somethings to become a playoff team in this league.

[droopdog7]

Honestly, I think after everything shakes out this team will end up with the 6-7 pick.  If no one thinks this is a bad thing considering we were tied for the 3rd spot two days a ago, I'm not sure what to say.

So what are the relevant odds for the #7 slot.  I am guessing considerably more depressing.

[chambers]

I am a passive commenter, frequent lurker to this board. I am 31 years old, and have been watching this team my entire life. That means I barely remember the championship years of the 80's and grew up on the putrid filth of the mid 90's Celtics. The reason I am chiming in now is this whole tank vs anti-tank thing has just gotten absolutely ridiculous.

Folks...there is NO DEBATE

I was able to entertain the thought earlier in the year of attempting to win as many games as possible, but at this point, anyone that either is wishing the Celtics to win or regaling in "Tanker's misery" is at best ignorant and at worst a fool.

Yes, the lottery is not an exact science, but at this point, we are stuck there, and it behooves the team to have the best shot at the best player. We have all seen countless lists of who was drafted at what spot in the draft, and what is quantifiable and measureable is the simple fact that better players come from the top spots. The fact that this even needs to be brought up is incredible to me, but yet some posters here can't look past the next week.

I read comments like "I will never root against the Celtics." Well that's terrific for you, but I hope you are happy with mediocrity for the next 10 years, because that's where they are heading unless they start adding impact talent. Impact talent rarely comes late in the draft, it happens but you have to be lucky. Yes, you also must be lucky to hit at the top of the draft, but the odds are much, much better.

Also, having a higher pick also benefits those that are in the camp of "the draft is a crap shoot, we never know." Yes, obviously, thanks for pointing that out. However, if we are going to trade our pick to bring in impact talent from another team...do you think that team would prefer the 3rd pick or the 6th? Some years that doesn't matter all that much, this one does.

In the end, any win at this point of the year has little to no value going forward, but the extra ping pong balls we might get by losing out has enormous potential. Anyone that can't see that at this point needs to take a step back and look at priorities, because clearly they can't see the forest for the trees.

When you make that claim, it would be nice if you showed the "measurables."

Isn't that fairly easy to assess? Take the best players in the NBA (James, Durant, Paul, etc.) and look where they were taken in the draft.

I don't think it's as easy as you suggest, Eddie.

But, for laughs, I decided to give it a try.  I looked at BasketBallReference's list of active leaders in career WinShares, and then looked to see where those players where drafted:

Here are the results:

1.  Tim Duncan (1st pick)
2.  Kevin Garnett (5th)
3.  Dirk Nowitzki (9th)
4.  Kobe Bryant (13th)
5.  Lebron James (1st)
6.  Ray Allen (5th)
7.  Paul Pierce (10th)
8.  Steve Nash (15th)
9.  Shawn Marion (9th)
10.  Chauncey Billups (3rd)
11.  Vince Carter (5th)
12.  Chris Paul (4th)
13.  Pau Gasol (3rd)
14.  Elton Brand (1st)
15.  Dwayne Wade (5th)
16.  Dwight Howard (1st)
17.  Andre Miller (8th)
18.  Chris Bosh (4th)
19.  Tony Parker (28th)
20.  Jason Terry (10th)
21.  Manu Ginobili (28th)
22.  Rashard Lewis (32nd)
23.  Kevin Durant (2nd)
24.  Antawn Jamison (4th)
25.  Amare Stoudemire (9th)

I suggest you look at NBA championship winners and nba finalist teams over the past 20 seasons and see how many of their best 2 players were picked. Then id look at the NBA MVP award and do the same. Also think how many of those guys like KG and Kobe would've gone if the NBA forces them to go to college like they do now.


These wins against Charlotte and Cleveland are utterly pointless. We just played a Cleveland team that was trying harder than us to lose....that's not gratifying to me and I don't see anything but missed opportunities at this stage of the season.
Utterly pointless.
Red would be turning in his grave.

[BballTim]

I am a passive commenter, frequent lurker to this board. I am 31 years old, and have been watching this team my entire life. That means I barely remember the championship years of the 80's and grew up on the putrid filth of the mid 90's Celtics. The reason I am chiming in now is this whole tank vs anti-tank thing has just gotten absolutely ridiculous.

Folks...there is NO DEBATE

I was able to entertain the thought earlier in the year of attempting to win as many games as possible, but at this point, anyone that either is wishing the Celtics to win or regaling in "Tanker's misery" is at best ignorant and at worst a fool.

Yes, the lottery is not an exact science, but at this point, we are stuck there, and it behooves the team to have the best shot at the best player. We have all seen countless lists of who was drafted at what spot in the draft, and what is quantifiable and measureable is the simple fact that better players come from the top spots. The fact that this even needs to be brought up is incredible to me, but yet some posters here can't look past the next week.

I read comments like "I will never root against the Celtics." Well that's terrific for you, but I hope you are happy with mediocrity for the next 10 years, because that's where they are heading unless they start adding impact talent. Impact talent rarely comes late in the draft, it happens but you have to be lucky. Yes, you also must be lucky to hit at the top of the draft, but the odds are much, much better.

Also, having a higher pick also benefits those that are in the camp of "the draft is a crap shoot, we never know." Yes, obviously, thanks for pointing that out. However, if we are going to trade our pick to bring in impact talent from another team...do you think that team would prefer the 3rd pick or the 6th? Some years that doesn't matter all that much, this one does.

In the end, any win at this point of the year has little to no value going forward, but the extra ping pong balls we might get by losing out has enormous potential. Anyone that can't see that at this point needs to take a step back and look at priorities, because clearly they can't see the forest for the trees.

When you make that claim, it would be nice if you showed the "measurables."

Isn't that fairly easy to assess? Take the best players in the NBA (James, Durant, Paul, etc.) and look where they were taken in the draft.

I don't think it's as easy as you suggest, Eddie.

But, for laughs, I decided to give it a try.  I looked at BasketBallReference's list of active leaders in career WinShares, and then looked to see where those players where drafted:

Here are the results:

1.  Tim Duncan (1st pick)
2.  Kevin Garnett (5th)
3.  Dirk Nowitzki (9th)
4.  Kobe Bryant (13th)
5.  Lebron James (1st)
6.  Ray Allen (5th)
7.  Paul Pierce (10th)
8.  Steve Nash (15th)
9.  Shawn Marion (9th)
10.  Chauncey Billups (3rd)
11.  Vince Carter (5th)
12.  Chris Paul (4th)
13.  Pau Gasol (3rd)
14.  Elton Brand (1st)
15.  Dwayne Wade (5th)
16.  Dwight Howard (1st)
17.  Andre Miller (8th)
18.  Chris Bosh (4th)
19.  Tony Parker (28th)
20.  Jason Terry (10th)
21.  Manu Ginobili (28th)
22.  Rashard Lewis (32nd)
23.  Kevin Durant (2nd)
24.  Antawn Jamison (4th)
25.  Amare Stoudemire (9th)

I suggest you look at NBA championship winners and nba finalist teams over the past 20 seasons and see how many of their best 2 players were picked. Then id look at the NBA MVP award and do the same. Also think how many of those guys like KG and Kobe would've gone if the NBA forces them to go to college like they do now.


These wins against Charlotte and Cleveland are utterly pointless. We just played a Cleveland team that was trying harder than us to lose....that's not gratifying to me and I don't see anything but missed opportunities at this stage of the season.
Utterly pointless.
Red would be turning in his grave.

  Red would be turning over in his grave because we won a couple of games? Not so sure about that.

[Celtics18]

I suggest you look at NBA championship winners and nba finalist teams over the past 20 seasons and see how many of their best 2 players were picked. Then id look at the NBA MVP award and do the same. Also think how many of those guys like KG and Kobe would've gone if the NBA forces them to go to college like they do now.


These wins against Charlotte and Cleveland are utterly pointless. We just played a Cleveland team that was trying harder than us to lose....that's not gratifying to me and I don't see anything but missed opportunities at this stage of the season.
Utterly pointless.
Red would be turning in his grave.
[/quote]

Let's start with the champions.  Guys who have been top two players on a championship team over the course of the last 20 years who were drafted outside the top five:

Dirk Nowitzki, 9th
Kobe Bryant, 13th (4 Championships)
Paul Pierce, 10th
Tony Parker, 28th (3 Championships)
Ben Wallace, Undrafted
Clyde Drexler, 14th
Otis Thorpe, 9th

That's twelve of the last twenty NBA Champions who had as one of their top two players someone drafted outside the top five. 

One of best two on runner's up not taken top five:

Tony Parker, 28th
Rajon Rondo, 21st
Rashard Lewis, 32nd
Kobe Bryant, 13th
Zydrunas Ilgauskas, 20th
Dirk Nowitzki, 9th
Jason Terry, 10th
Reggie Miller, 11th
Jalen Rose, 13th
Latrell Sprewell, 24th
Karl Malone, 13th (2 time Runner-up)
John Stockton, 16th (2 time Runner-up)
Shawn Kemp, 17th
John Starks, Undrafted

[PhoSita]

Honestly, I think after everything shakes out this team will end up with the 6-7 pick.  If no one thinks this is a bad thing considering we were tied for the 3rd spot two days a ago, I'm not sure what to say.

So what are the relevant odds for the #7 slot.  I am guessing considerably more depressing.

At one point in time this Celtics team had the division lead and were headed to the playoffs.  In retrospect we'll say, at one point in time they had the 3rd worst record.

Point being -- it's easy to play this game.  If you told me before the season started that this team would get a bottom 5-6 record and the result would be the #7 pick, I'd be okay with that.

A season of losses cannot be judged solely on whether the team gets a top 3 pick.  The lottery prevents that from being a reasonable rubric.  It is enough that the team is nearly guaranteed to get a fairly high pick in the draft and have the opportunity to select from the second tier of players in this draft, which is pretty good, all things considered.

[badax33]

I don't think where we finish is all that important.  Yes I agree that having a top 3 picks is better than having the #5 or 6 picks.  But if we follow that plan, we won't be relevant for another 3-5 years.  Our rookies will have to mature, just like the OKC team has done. And they haven't won anything yet and this is Durrant's year in the league.

I think the key to rebuilding or reloading is adding assets as Danny did back in 2005-2007 and then making the right trade or trades and bringing in All-Stars and/or impact players to put around Rondo.   Trading Rondo makes no sense to me.  If you are trying to add All-Stars how does trading one away help.

Right now we have a bunch of 1st Rd picks, a 10M TPE, Keith Bogans non-guaranteed contract,  and in 2015 we should have lots of Cap Space available.  I have no issue with Danny trading our lottery pick if it's outside the top 3, which it looks like it might be after tonight's win. 

So right now, I don't get to high when we win or too low when we lose.  I really believe that the trade route is the best way to reload and the lottery picks is a very good chip to play.