I've had all I can stand and I can't stands no more...

[PhoSita]

Just because the Pistons drafted Darko doesn't mean that 29 out of 30 teams wouldn't have taken Carmelo instead.


Surprising players happen all the time -- that's why they're called surprises. But you're essentially looking at a process that is so far ahead of where it was 10 years ago that to use what happened 10 years ago as a benchmark for 'the experts don't know what they're talking about' is silly.

Manu Ginobili was drafted with the 56th pick or something equally ridiculous because San Antonio were ahead of the curve in their international draft game. Darko was picked 3rd because he had one amazing workout. Exum is projected to go top 5 by almost everyone -- not because his agent has done a great job hyping him up, but because he has the potential to be the next Penny Hardaway, and everyone knows that because everyone's paying more than lip service to overseas play now... because of players like Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

I find it interesting that someone who was so optimistic about what was so obviously a bad basketball team is so pessimistic about the upcoming draft. My suspicion is that you're pushing back against all the people who've been rooting for losses all year by taking your frustrations out on anyone who's excited about the future. That's a shame.

Excellent post.

I can't entirely blame C18 for seeming a little curmudgeonly about the draft at this point.  He's been fighting the good fight, mostly alone, all season long.

[D.o.s.]

For sure. I use C18's posts as the forum's moral compass.

[Celtics18]

Just because the Pistons drafted Darko doesn't mean that 29 out of 30 teams wouldn't have taken Carmelo instead.


Surprising players happen all the time -- that's why they're called surprises. But you're essentially looking at a process that is so far ahead of where it was 10 years ago that to use what happened 10 years ago as a benchmark for 'the experts don't know what they're talking about' is silly.

Manu Ginobili was drafted with the 56th pick or something equally ridiculous because San Antonio were ahead of the curve in their international draft game. Darko was picked 3rd because he had one amazing workout. Exum is projected to go top 5 by almost everyone -- not because his agent has done a great job hyping him up, but because he has the potential to be the next Penny Hardaway, and everyone knows that because everyone's paying more than lip service to overseas play now... because of players like Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

I find it interesting that someone who was so optimistic about what was so obviously a bad basketball team is so pessimistic about the upcoming draft. My suspicion is that you're pushing back against all the people who've been rooting for losses all year by taking your frustrations out on anyone who's excited about the future. That's a shame.

You have completely misunderstood me.  I am very excited about the future, and I am certainly not trying to rain on anybody else's parade about it.  As a matter of fact, I am so excited about the future that even if our draft pick falls outside the top four, I will still feel very rosy about our chance to rebuild this team into a contender before too long.

Simply put, the draft is not an exact science.  I think that's as true today as it was ten years ago.  The job of scouts and draftniks is to predict which non-fully formed nineteen year olds are going to be the best NBA basketball players.  There's no way they'll ever get that 100% right.  There are too many variables there. 

I'm not trying to call any of the professionals who scout NBA prospects hacks or anything like that.  I'm just trying to point out that the nature of what they do is going to lead to them making some predictions that don't come to pass.  That's the nature of it.  That's why drafts have multiple surprises every year.

I trust Danny to do a good job with the assets he has this off-season.  He's going to have two first rounders, including one in the lottery, in a very deep draft.  So, yeah, I'm excited. 

So, I agree that it is a shame that you have those suspicions about my motives for pointing these things out.  Let me assure you, though, that your suspicions are unfounded. 










 

[GreenFaith1819]

So, you want to see the team actively throw the remaining three games?  Miss shots on purpose?  Give up on crucial defensive possessions? 

For the future.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Fair enough.  I refuse to go there.  Apparently that makes me a short-sighted moron.

Me too, Brother...me too.

So,  I guess that I can tell my two young sons to go ahead and fix games (miss shots, play lackadaisical, etc).....so their (potential) future NBA team can get a desired spot in the draft......

.....a draft where, even though there are some talented players - there is absolutely no guarantee that ANY of them will pan out.

That's why  - as I posted in a different thread - if we get Wiggins I'd ship him to CHI for Noah or POR for LaMarcus, or Minny for Kevin - give me a PROVEN star any day of the week.

I'd say - "Hey Wiggins glad to have you in Green - but you're going to Minny for KLove. We just traded you."

That's just me.

....and that's me, too, but then that begs the question, "Are those teams more likely to part with those players, if we can offer them Wiggins/Embiid/Parker, or Aaron, "role player at best", Gordon or the like?

Good point.

I made those trade suggestions in the mindset that they probably wouldn't happen in real life, but hopefully - depending on where our pick fell - Danny could work his Savvy GM-Skills like he did in Summer of 2007.

That is the advantage that Danny has over many GMs right now...we do have some attractive (and well-priced) pieces on this team, PLUS we have several draft picks.

I just have the feeling that we're going to turn this thing around rather quickly, as in we're right back in contention in 1-2 years.

And with that being said - I just don't believe that Wiggins, Parker or Embiid will be a part of that....our impending contention status will be because of them (or Exum) - meaning Danny traded them for contending pieces...assembled a nice package (like 2007), to get a proven star.

This is Title Town...why let our Cadillac (Rondo) not have his pieces to work with? As long as he lets Stevens coach him, Rondo will be the anchor that helps draw one (or two) of these Proven stars here to BOS.

And I really believe, as I've posted - that Danny will/can make it happen.

[PhoSita]

I just have the feeling that we're going to turn this thing around rather quickly, as in we're right back in contention in 1-2 years.

And with that being said - I just don't believe that Wiggins, Parker or Embiid will be a part of that....our impending contention status will be because of them (or Exum) - meaning Danny traded them for contending pieces...assembled a nice package (like 2007), to get a proven star.

I understand the desire to see a quick turnaround here, but I think it's a problematic attitude.  If a perfect set of circumstances comes together and something like the KG and Allen trades is there, then so be it.  I think it's far more likely that you end up trading Joe Johnson for Tony Delk, or Chauncey Billups for Kenny Anderson.

The goal should be to try and have the team on a clear road to title contention within 2-3 years.  Adding a rim protector like Asik, clearing out some of the superfluous veterans, and giving minutes to productive young players with potential, not to mention having a healthy Rondo, should see a much-improved Celtics team on the floor next season.

[GreenFaith1819]

So, you want to see the team actively throw the remaining three games?  Miss shots on purpose?  Give up on crucial defensive possessions? 

For the future.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Fair enough.  I refuse to go there.  Apparently that makes me a short-sighted moron.

Me too, Brother...me too.

So,  I guess that I can tell my two young sons to go ahead and fix games (miss shots, play lackadaisical, etc).....so their (potential) future NBA team can get a desired spot in the draft......

.....a draft where, even though there are some talented players - there is absolutely no guarantee that ANY of them will pan out.

That's why  - as I posted in a different thread - if we get Wiggins I'd ship him to CHI for Noah or POR for LaMarcus, or Minny for Kevin - give me a PROVEN star any day of the week.

I'd say - "Hey Wiggins glad to have you in Green - but you're going to Minny for KLove. We just traded you."

That's just me.

Unless your two young sons are playing for a lottery-bound NBA team, I don't see the correlation. The two situations could not be any different. Your later point regarding trading Wiggins/et all for an established player is a curious one as well. How do you anticipate getting Wiggins with the 5th or 6th (or worse) pick?

In my opinion, the real value for Ainge in having the top-4 pick is the threat of keeping that player and building around him. There seems to be a consensus about the top-4 and then a drop off from there. I would assume most of the other GMs around the league will know that Ainge is unlikely to keep a player drafted outside of the top-4, which deflates his trade market. Owning one of the top-4 picks in this draft allows him to either keep the player or let the trade market come to him if someone wants to over pay. Either way, an extra win or two over the next week drastically affects those opportunities for little to no long term benefit. From a simple business point of view, its simply not good value to win.

And just to go with your point, I would take it as a learning opportunity for your children that sometimes a step back can allow you to take two steps forward in life. This is one of those situations, it isn't a negative thing, its a building thing. I've enjoyed this season as much as any in the last few years because I feel like they are building a new house and just laid the foundation. That's how I view the losing, a necessary step back in order to take two big steps forward.

As for your 1st bolded - I would NEVER advocate a situation where my sons - hypothetically - would not play up to their potential and help "tank" a game. I'd sit them myself (and I'm not even the coach).

No matter how we all spin this, I've watch a few games (and read the Blog here every day) and seen some....."suspicious" behavior, lol....this whole tanking thing stinks, no matter how we spin it.

I'll never accept it.

Poop is poop...you can't put a bow on it and call it a cake....it's still poop.

I just can't (and won't) accept it, nor cheer for it. You re basically spinning a situation to someone to not play up to their potential....plain as day. If I did this, I might as well become a Lawyer....or start selling some desert dwellers glasses of sand - dirt cheap, lol.

[GreenFaith1819]

I just have the feeling that we're going to turn this thing around rather quickly, as in we're right back in contention in 1-2 years.

And with that being said - I just don't believe that Wiggins, Parker or Embiid will be a part of that....our impending contention status will be because of them (or Exum) - meaning Danny traded them for contending pieces...assembled a nice package (like 2007), to get a proven star.

I understand the desire to see a quick turnaround here, but I think it's a problematic attitude.  If a perfect set of circumstances comes together and something like the KG and Allen trades is there, then so be it.  I think it's far more likely that you end up trading Joe Johnson for Tony Delk, or Chauncey Billups for Kenny Anderson.

The goal should be to try and have the team on a clear road to title contention within 2-3 years.  Adding a rim protector like Asik, clearing out some of the superfluous veterans, and giving minutes to productive young players with potential, not to mention having a healthy Rondo, should see a much-improved Celtics team on the floor next season.

I see your point, Pho, but I just couldn't agree with the premise of Tanking, that's all.

Your suggestion of 2-3 years...I can go with that. I do think, though, that the window is a bit small...2-3 years and Rondo will be 30-31....do we want a 30-31y.o. Rajon running the team?

My whole point is intentionally tanking....it just stinks. If there is proof of it I'm sure Red is flipping in his grave. That's just not BOS's way.

I see your point (as well as the Pro-Tankers) but I just don't agree with it.

And Asik would be a nice piece if he could be had for the right price.

[nickagneta]

Been agreeing with and supporting CelticS18 al season long regarding his stance. Everything he said in this thread, I agree with completely, so I will just leave it at that. TP C18

[PhoSita]

I do think, though, that the window is a bit small...2-3 years and Rondo will be 30-31....do we want a 30-31y.o. Rajon running the team?

This, along with Rondo's impending free agency, is why I really feel that sooner or later Rondo is gonna end up elsewhere. 

If Ainge can pull off a trade coup (i.e. getting Love without giving up our top pick in this draft), then I could see Rondo sticking around. 

Maybe if we get one of the 3 guys at the top of this draft, Rondo will stick around.  Rondo could be a very capable floor general in his early to mid 30s a la Andre Miller and Jason Kidd, if he has a lot of talented young[er] scorers around him.

[GreenFaith1819]

I do think, though, that the window is a bit small...2-3 years and Rondo will be 30-31....do we want a 30-31y.o. Rajon running the team?

This, along with Rondo's impending free agency, is why I really feel that sooner or later Rondo is gonna end up elsewhere. 

If Ainge can pull off a trade coup (i.e. getting Love without giving up our top pick in this draft), then I could see Rondo sticking around. 

Maybe if we get one of the 3 guys at the top of this draft, Rondo will stick around.  Rondo could be a very capable floor general in his early to mid 30s a la Andre Miller and Jason Kidd, if he has a lot of talented young[er] scorers around him.

I see your point with Rondo's situation....the sadness with that, though, is "if" Rondo ends up elsewhere, then - IMO - Danny should just Nuke us.

We're not going anywhere without Rajon Rondo....he is, for all of his supposed warts - the key to us contending...like him or not. He has playoff experience and he's been proven to actually raise his performance in the post-season.

I just don't see any other way to this team being successful if Rondo ends up elsewhere. He is one of a kind....he can drive a title contender here in BOS. He's done it before. That is why I hope Danny can get a team assembled around him soon.

Oh - and please NO offense, Roy (if you're reading this)...I believe you are a Lawyer. My allusion to lawyers earlier was no offense to you...it's just that lawyers are good at winning their cases...and - at times - spin....the same spin that some Pro-Tankers are applying to this season.

I'm just not a fan of it.

[LilRip]

People have mentioned that drafting is far from an exact science, and that's true to an extent, but over the past 30 drafts, if you group it into top5, top6-10, top 11-20 and so on, then the top5 group has yielded the most all-stars and most all-NBA (1st/2nd/3rd team) players compared against any other group.

What does this tell us about this particular draft? Not much.

However, it stands to reason that you are much more likely to find someone good at the top (particularly top5) rather than at the bottom. Yes, the draft is a crapshoot, but not THAT much of a crapshoot. There is some science that still goes into it, albeit not 100% accurate. Finding a Rajon Rondo, Tony Parker, Gilbert Arenas, Manu Ginobili, etc. is really more the exception rather than the rule. It's like hoping to land the #1 overall pick while holding a less than 5% chance. It's happened before (the Magic, Nets, Bulls and Clippers) and it can happen again, but odds are that it won't.
 

[D.o.s.]

So, I agree that it is a shame that you have those suspicions about my motives for pointing these things out.  Let me assure you, though, that your suspicions are unfounded. 

Well that's good. It's not just me, though, it's at least me and someone else, and possibly more than that.

[LarBrd33]

There's definitely two factions at the moment.  The blog is divided. 

But a week from now we'll either all be celebrating our position to draft a potential superstar... or we'll be trying to figure out who we can pick 5-10 that can make an impact.

This divide is temporary.   A week from now, star belly sneetches and reguar sneetches will be together again.   



Until then, I hope we lose the next 3 badly and Orlando, LA, Utah and Sacramento all close out the season in winning fashion.  For the greater good!

... of course, even after this tank situation is resolved, the blog will remain divided on whether or not we need to trade Rondo.  So I guess we can continue arguing with each other until 2015.

[GreenFaith1819]

There's definitely two factions at the moment.  The blog is divided. 

But a week from now we'll either all be celebrating our position to draft a potential superstar... or we'll be trying to figure out who we can pick 5-10 that can make an impact.

This divide is temporary.   A week from now, star belly sneetches and reguar sneetches will be together again.   



Until then, I hope we lose the next 3 badly and Orlando, LA, Utah and Sacramento all close out the season in winning fashion.  For the greater good!

... of course, even after this tank situation is resolved, the blog will remain divided on whether or not we need to trade Rondo.  So I guess we can continue arguing with each other until 2015.

....Or - we'll be celebrating that Danny made another blockbuster trade and moved -whoever we draft - (along with our pick(s)) - for a proven star...and that proven star (whoever it is) - helps us land another proven star.

That's what I'm hoping, at least.

As for the blog's divide, lol....it is a rather friendly one....at least we're not Lakers fans....the schism that's present over there in lala land is that Kobe will lead them to the promised land......and the naysayers in lala land are for the franchise...they have 48 million or so wrapped up in Kobe over 2 years....

Danny Ainge is a gambler, as one of our posters here has alluded to before....some team(s) out there will definitely want what we have/draft....and with that I hope we can net a proven star.....all we need is one....that "one" can draw another.

I know that my mindset scenario is unlikely to happen again (summer 2007)....we must have some dominoes drop....but it can happen.

[Celtics18]

So, I agree that it is a shame that you have those suspicions about my motives for pointing these things out.  Let me assure you, though, that your suspicions are unfounded. 

Well that's good. It's not just me, though, it's at least me and someone else, and possibly more than that.

Let me assure the whole gang, then, that your suspicions are unfounded.