Author Topic: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue  (Read 24366 times)

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Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #90 on: April 12, 2014, 01:25:04 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #91 on: April 12, 2014, 03:23:23 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?



edit: i understand what it means, but the grammar made me bring out the Grandma.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #92 on: April 12, 2014, 10:51:01 AM »

Offline BballTim

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

  Basically three things have to happen for a team to run. A quick outlet after you get the ball, players hustling up the court to get open and the ball getting up the court quickly. You (and other people) are concentrating only on the third thing and don't seem to have any interest in or knowledge of whether either of the first two happened. Are all the defenders back and set yet? Who cares! How many Celts are still in the backcourt? What's the difference? Run the ball!

  When the team gets a rebound Rondo's calling for the ball right away because he's trying to get something in transition. When he gets the ball and there's a transition opportunity he goes for it. When he gets the ball late and the defense is set or none of his teammates ran up court he doesn't needlessly hurry, and that's what people are knocking him for.

 

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #93 on: April 12, 2014, 01:35:09 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

  Basically three things have to happen for a team to run. A quick outlet after you get the ball, players hustling up the court to get open and the ball getting up the court quickly. You (and other people) are concentrating only on the third thing and don't seem to have any interest in or knowledge of whether either of the first two happened. Are all the defenders back and set yet? Who cares! How many Celts are still in the backcourt? What's the difference? Run the ball!

  When the team gets a rebound Rondo's calling for the ball right away because he's trying to get something in transition. When he gets the ball and there's a transition opportunity he goes for it. When he gets the ball late and the defense is set or none of his teammates ran up court he doesn't needlessly hurry, and that's what people are knocking him for.

 

He doesn't go for it. Espcially in the 4th. He is taking his sweet as time , setting up alot of plays when he doesn' t have to. He has been very poor in identifying chances for fast break points or trying to make it happen himself. I understand due his health not being 100 percent he might not try to go end to end often, but at least tive the team a chance to do it.

You see bigs like KO, Hump, Green, AB , Johnson. These guys alot of the times are running up the court but don't get passes.  Pass the ball and if they screw up, they screw up. But you keep passing the ball up when you got a chance regardless. It's the right play, easy basketball and  prevents all 5 guys on defense from settling in

When the big three were here, especially later in their careers, they rarely did this.  So Tommy is right, its a bad habit Rondo has learnt. Maybe they didn't do it, bc doc instructed them not to , maybe they didn/t bc these guys are older and don't have the gas to run back and forth frequently. Set plays worked with that team, bc of the pattern and plays they were used to doing for 2 to 3 years straight. PP, KG, Allen know the vet tricks to score 1 on 1 baskets or get and one calls (pierce leaning into his man).

The team now is young. Fresh legs. Their strength is pushing the pace . Not half court set plays , where the talent level isn't there nor will they get calls from the refs. Passing is also this teams strength. Utilizing secondary passing is smart. For example, rondo passing the ball to the guy next to him, so he has a better angle to lob it to the man inside. Instead Rondo figuring this out, takes it to the basket, tries to attract the inside defender and makes these difficult passes that are more often than not unnecessary. Its either that he can't think this game plan or wants the assist all to himself.  Even though he gets this assist, he is killing the flow offensively. The guy right to him is a pilon and the guy underneath the basket gets sudden passes that might be difficult to handle. 

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #94 on: April 12, 2014, 02:54:01 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

  Basically three things have to happen for a team to run. A quick outlet after you get the ball, players hustling up the court to get open and the ball getting up the court quickly. You (and other people) are concentrating only on the third thing and don't seem to have any interest in or knowledge of whether either of the first two happened. Are all the defenders back and set yet? Who cares! How many Celts are still in the backcourt? What's the difference? Run the ball!

  When the team gets a rebound Rondo's calling for the ball right away because he's trying to get something in transition. When he gets the ball and there's a transition opportunity he goes for it. When he gets the ball late and the defense is set or none of his teammates ran up court he doesn't needlessly hurry, and that's what people are knocking him for.

 

He doesn't go for it. Espcially in the 4th. He is taking his sweet as time , setting up alot of plays when he doesn' t have to. He has been very poor in identifying chances for fast break points or trying to make it happen himself. I understand due his health not being 100 percent he might not try to go end to end often, but at least tive the team a chance to do it.

You see bigs like KO, Hump, Green, AB , Johnson. These guys alot of the times are running up the court but don't get passes.  Pass the ball and if they screw up, they screw up. But you keep passing the ball up when you got a chance regardless. It's the right play, easy basketball and  prevents all 5 guys on defense from settling in

  A few pages ago in this thread someone posted Rondo's youtube highlights from 3 of his recent games. Go watch them. They show him doing what I describe, basically the exact opposite of what you're saying he does. Beyond that, watch a game and instead of just looking for plays where he walks the ball up look at all the plays where he doesn't. Again, you'll see him generally doing the opposite of what you claim he does.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #95 on: April 12, 2014, 03:01:48 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

  Basically three things have to happen for a team to run. A quick outlet after you get the ball, players hustling up the court to get open and the ball getting up the court quickly. You (and other people) are concentrating only on the third thing and don't seem to have any interest in or knowledge of whether either of the first two happened. Are all the defenders back and set yet? Who cares! How many Celts are still in the backcourt? What's the difference? Run the ball!

  When the team gets a rebound Rondo's calling for the ball right away because he's trying to get something in transition. When he gets the ball and there's a transition opportunity he goes for it. When he gets the ball late and the defense is set or none of his teammates ran up court he doesn't needlessly hurry, and that's what people are knocking him for.

 

He doesn't go for it. Espcially in the 4th. He is taking his sweet as time , setting up alot of plays when he doesn' t have to. He has been very poor in identifying chances for fast break points or trying to make it happen himself. I understand due his health not being 100 percent he might not try to go end to end often, but at least tive the team a chance to do it.

You see bigs like KO, Hump, Green, AB , Johnson. These guys alot of the times are running up the court but don't get passes.  Pass the ball and if they screw up, they screw up. But you keep passing the ball up when you got a chance regardless. It's the right play, easy basketball and  prevents all 5 guys on defense from settling in

  A few pages ago in this thread someone posted Rondo's youtube highlights from 3 of his recent games. Go watch them. They show him doing what I describe, basically the exact opposite of what you're saying he does. Beyond that, watch a game and instead of just looking for plays where he walks the ball up look at all the plays where he doesn't. Again, you'll see him generally doing the opposite of what you claim he does.

How about you start watching the other players play, what their needs are etc. instead of watching Rondo's every move. Watch Pressey or Bayless even play pg and see how different the team reacts/plays. How some guys actually start playing better

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #96 on: April 12, 2014, 03:54:20 PM »

Offline LilRip

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo), i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.
- LilRip

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #97 on: April 12, 2014, 04:12:17 PM »

Offline D.o.s.

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #98 on: April 12, 2014, 05:04:02 PM »

Offline sahara

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/

Goran > Rondo

Yeah I said it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jZdeP6NM8

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #99 on: April 12, 2014, 05:21:41 PM »

Offline TheTruthFot18

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/

Goran > Rondo

Yeah I said it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jZdeP6NM8

I Once said Rudy Gay could be the next Paul Pierce. We all make mistakes
The Nets will finish with the worst record and the Celtics will end up with the 4th pick.

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Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #100 on: April 12, 2014, 05:34:16 PM »

Offline sahara

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/

Goran > Rondo

Yeah I said it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jZdeP6NM8

I Once said Rudy Gay could be the next Paul Pierce. We all make mistakes

Well Rudy Gay`s career isn`t over yet.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #101 on: April 12, 2014, 05:52:06 PM »

Offline clover

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/

Goran > Rondo

Yeah I said it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jZdeP6NM8

I Once said Rudy Gay could be the next Paul Pierce. We all make mistakes

Well Rudy Gay`s career isn`t over yet.

But it's too late for him to have a Pierce-level career.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #102 on: April 12, 2014, 06:05:58 PM »

Offline sahara

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all this talk about pushing pace and running..

FWIW, people should start watching Goran Dragic, if they aren't already. Because he doesn't regularly pick up monster stat games (like Rondo)
, i think he goes underrated (particularly to non-Suns fans, which is understandable) but IMO, he's one of the best PGs out there particularly when it comes to pushing the pace.

Dragic's had a monster season. Co-signed.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/dragigo01/gamelog/2014/

Goran > Rondo

Yeah I said it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7jZdeP6NM8

I Once said Rudy Gay could be the next Paul Pierce. We all make mistakes

Well Rudy Gay`s career isn`t over yet.

But it's too late for him to have a Pierce-level career.

Oh, I agree! But you`ll never know.. Maybe one day Rudy will find himself with 2 HOF`s and he does ok. But enough with the OT.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 06:15:38 PM by sahara »

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #103 on: April 12, 2014, 07:54:15 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

  Basically three things have to happen for a team to run. A quick outlet after you get the ball, players hustling up the court to get open and the ball getting up the court quickly. You (and other people) are concentrating only on the third thing and don't seem to have any interest in or knowledge of whether either of the first two happened. Are all the defenders back and set yet? Who cares! How many Celts are still in the backcourt? What's the difference? Run the ball!

  When the team gets a rebound Rondo's calling for the ball right away because he's trying to get something in transition. When he gets the ball and there's a transition opportunity he goes for it. When he gets the ball late and the defense is set or none of his teammates ran up court he doesn't needlessly hurry, and that's what people are knocking him for.

 

He doesn't go for it. Espcially in the 4th. He is taking his sweet as time , setting up alot of plays when he doesn' t have to. He has been very poor in identifying chances for fast break points or trying to make it happen himself. I understand due his health not being 100 percent he might not try to go end to end often, but at least tive the team a chance to do it.

You see bigs like KO, Hump, Green, AB , Johnson. These guys alot of the times are running up the court but don't get passes.  Pass the ball and if they screw up, they screw up. But you keep passing the ball up when you got a chance regardless. It's the right play, easy basketball and  prevents all 5 guys on defense from settling in

  A few pages ago in this thread someone posted Rondo's youtube highlights from 3 of his recent games. Go watch them. They show him doing what I describe, basically the exact opposite of what you're saying he does. Beyond that, watch a game and instead of just looking for plays where he walks the ball up look at all the plays where he doesn't. Again, you'll see him generally doing the opposite of what you claim he does.

How about you start watching the other players play, what their needs are etc. instead of watching Rondo's every move. Watch Pressey or Bayless even play pg and see how different the team reacts/plays. How some guys actually start playing better

  Obviously I watch the other players during the games. Sometimes Pressey and Bayless play well, sometimes they're overmatched. You can't draw too many conclusions from watching people play on a bad team but you can see enough to figure out why Bayless has never been a regular starter and Pressey's not really likely to be one either.

Re: Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue
« Reply #104 on: April 13, 2014, 01:23:16 AM »

Offline Rondohara

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Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.

tell me, how is anybody going to outrun you moving backwards?   Even if they can, its going to take alot of effort to do it

Tommy is talking about running/pushing the pace and especially not letting the defense settle. Not letting them breathe.

Rondo does the opposite, especially in the 4th quarter. Do you understand his frustration?

It's not that hard for the fast guys to get back before the offense can get there. And they don't need to run backwards always  :P 

Or are you talking about just clear chance fast-breaks? There are what, 5 of those a game?

Like I said, with guys who are slower and less athletic it's hard to prevent the defense from out-moving you.
Trying to push the pace always won't equal success if you don't have the right guys to do it.  If all 30 teams we're pushing the pace, success would be going even more to the ones with the faster and more athletic players.

I agree with the strategy, but it sometimes it just can't be executed.
You just can't outrun and push the pace against someone faster and more athletic (stamina etc).

This "Rondo holds the ball in the 4th" is mostly poor analysis that stems from when he holds the ball to use the most of the 24 secs. When we have the lead.
Goal for next season: Top 2 seed.
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