Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue

[BballTim]

Getting past the hyperbole that has littered this thread regarding Rondo, I have to agree with the pragmatic opinions of Faf and Roy.

I'm one of the biggest Rondo supporters on this site but he does hold the ball a bit too much, but then again, in today's game, most PGs do. And it really doesn't matter the type of PG either. Whether you are a floor general type like Paul and Rondo or a shoot first guy like Rose or Westbrook, you tend to dominate the ball and the ball moves a whole lot less. It what the game has become with the advent of the three point line, stretch offenses, and smallish SGs with great handles that are too small to play the SG position in the much larger, current era of the NBA.

I think Stevens needs to change his offense. He's definitely at fault here. The system is awful.

The pace has to be improved when the efficiency isn't there, that's on Rondo.

The talent and general makeup of this team(loads of PFs and small guards, no centers, and a lack of ball handlers and shooters) is also to blame, that's on Danny.

The players in the system stink, that's on them.

Loads of blame to go around here. Singling out your one star and the team captain with 4 games to go in a season is ludicrous, Tommy. Respect for your knowledge and experience, but at this point, this is an off season matter to deal with between Stevens and Rondo. Sitting Rondo now for doing these things is just a ridiculous idea.

  I think to a certain extent this is just a throw-away season. We don't have the talent to succeed in any offensive system or even implement one well. How much time and effort should Stevens put into coming up with a game plan (that he'll never use again) that will wring a tiny bit more productivity or efficiency out of them? And does such a scheme even exist? The only real plan I'm seeing in this thread that might help is "run more".

  That works great if you have a transition opportunity but beyond that not so much. People believe that if the defense is set that rushing the ball up court and taking a quick shot will magically make us more efficient. It won't. Or we could have Rondo take off down the court whenever the other team shoots the ball, on the theory that the current bigs will hit him with a great outlet pass. That means we'll get fewer defensive rebounds and when the outlet's not there we'll be relying on players like Bradley and Bass to get the ball up court. What could go wrong there?

 

[sed522002]

Getting past the hyperbole that has littered this thread regarding Rondo, I have to agree with the pragmatic opinions of Faf and Roy.

I'm one of the biggest Rondo supporters on this site but he does hold the ball a bit too much, but then again, in today's game, most PGs do. And it really doesn't matter the type of PG either. Whether you are a floor general type like Paul and Rondo or a shoot first guy like Rose or Westbrook, you tend to dominate the ball and the ball moves a whole lot less. It what the game has become with the advent of the three point line, stretch offenses, and smallish SGs with great handles that are too small to play the SG position in the much larger, current era of the NBA.

I think Stevens needs to change his offense. He's definitely at fault here. The system is awful.

The pace has to be improved when the efficiency isn't there, that's on Rondo.

The talent and general makeup of this team(loads of PFs and small guards, no centers, and a lack of ball handlers and shooters) is also to blame, that's on Danny.

The players in the system stink, that's on them.

Loads of blame to go around here. Singling out your one star and the team captain with 4 games to go in a season is ludicrous, Tommy. Respect for your knowledge and experience, but at this point, this is an off season matter to deal with between Stevens and Rondo. Sitting Rondo now for doing these things is just a ridiculous idea.

  I think to a certain extent this is just a throw-away season. We don't have the talent to succeed in any offensive system or even implement one well. How much time and effort should Stevens put into coming up with a game plan (that he'll never use again) that will wring a tiny bit more productivity or efficiency out of them? And does such a scheme even exist? The only real plan I'm seeing in this thread that might help is "run more".

  That works great if you have a transition opportunity but beyond that not so much. People believe that if the defense is set that rushing the ball up court and taking a quick shot will magically make us more efficient. It won't. Or we could have Rondo take off down the court whenever the other team shoots the ball, on the theory that the current bigs will hit him with a great outlet pass. That means we'll get fewer defensive rebounds and when the outlet's not there we'll be relying on players like Bradley and Bass to get the ball up court. What could go wrong there?

 

I think a lot of times when people talk about pace they automatically think fast. Every single possession doesn't need to be a sprint up the floor. You have to take what the defense gives you and know the game situation at that point in time. I not too concerned with the pace it's more so the sticking of the ball, whether it's with Rondo or any other player. Make the defense have to work instead of just ball watching. I'm a big fan of movement, don't just stand around..make a cut to the basket or something.

[BballTim]

If I am Stevens and I see Rondo slowing the pace, against my wishes(yeah, the one thing not discussed here is has Stevens told Rondo to slow the pace down at certain times of the game), I am pulling him aside and telling him:

"Okay, I get it. You aren't used to running a team at the pace I want. This season is done, fine, run it slow. But your ass better be doing wind sprints all summer long because come next season we run and if you aren't on board with that, you will be sitting at the end of the bench and watching Pressey run this club. Period end of story!"

And my tone would be far from friendly.

  Rondo's been on the team for 8 years. Every year we hear the coach talk about wanting to run more and Rondo's pretty much avoided getting benched for running the wrong pace for his entire career. If you want your team to run you need to get stops on defense, you need to get rebounds, you need to make quick outlet passes and you need to have your players get up court ahead of the defense. It's not like all of these things are happening and Rondo kills the break because he's slowly dribbling up the court.

[Vermont Green]

The issue with Rondo now is in a broad sense what it always has been.  He has great court vision and is a great passer so when the ball is in his hands, good things can happen.  This is amplified by the fact that when he doesn't have the ball, he doesn't really need to be covered.

These two things feed off each other in kind of downwardly spiraling manner.  Rondo has the ball too much so coach say pass more.  He passes more but things get even worse when he doesn't have the ball so Rondo holds the ball more.

I recognize that this is an over simplification but I think it is accurate.  No matter how bad we are when Rondo holds the ball too much, we are even worse when he is off the ball.  Some players spread the floor when they are off the ball, Rondo actually shrinks it.

This applies once the offence is set.  In transition, there is no reason for Rondo not to push the ball by passing up the court and no reason for the team to always give Rondo the ball after a rebound.

[BballTim]

Getting past the hyperbole that has littered this thread regarding Rondo, I have to agree with the pragmatic opinions of Faf and Roy.

I'm one of the biggest Rondo supporters on this site but he does hold the ball a bit too much, but then again, in today's game, most PGs do. And it really doesn't matter the type of PG either. Whether you are a floor general type like Paul and Rondo or a shoot first guy like Rose or Westbrook, you tend to dominate the ball and the ball moves a whole lot less. It what the game has become with the advent of the three point line, stretch offenses, and smallish SGs with great handles that are too small to play the SG position in the much larger, current era of the NBA.

I think Stevens needs to change his offense. He's definitely at fault here. The system is awful.

The pace has to be improved when the efficiency isn't there, that's on Rondo.

The talent and general makeup of this team(loads of PFs and small guards, no centers, and a lack of ball handlers and shooters) is also to blame, that's on Danny.

The players in the system stink, that's on them.

Loads of blame to go around here. Singling out your one star and the team captain with 4 games to go in a season is ludicrous, Tommy. Respect for your knowledge and experience, but at this point, this is an off season matter to deal with between Stevens and Rondo. Sitting Rondo now for doing these things is just a ridiculous idea.

  I think to a certain extent this is just a throw-away season. We don't have the talent to succeed in any offensive system or even implement one well. How much time and effort should Stevens put into coming up with a game plan (that he'll never use again) that will wring a tiny bit more productivity or efficiency out of them? And does such a scheme even exist? The only real plan I'm seeing in this thread that might help is "run more".

  That works great if you have a transition opportunity but beyond that not so much. People believe that if the defense is set that rushing the ball up court and taking a quick shot will magically make us more efficient. It won't. Or we could have Rondo take off down the court whenever the other team shoots the ball, on the theory that the current bigs will hit him with a great outlet pass. That means we'll get fewer defensive rebounds and when the outlet's not there we'll be relying on players like Bradley and Bass to get the ball up court. What could go wrong there?

 

I think a lot of times when people talk about pace they automatically think fast. Every single possession doesn't need to be a sprint up the floor. You have to take what the defense gives you and know the game situation at that point in time. I not too concerned with the pace it's more so the sticking of the ball, whether it's with Rondo or any other player. Make the defense have to work instead of just ball watching. I'm a big fan of movement, don't just stand around..make a cut to the basket or something.

  I don't think that whether one person has the ball or you're passing is as important as whether you put pressure on the defense or not. After Rondo went out the team would frequently spend a fair amount of time passing the ball around the perimeter and people were thrilled with the wonderful ball movement, as if two people passing the ball back and forth 25 feet from the basket was inherently better than one person dribbling the ball.

[nickagneta]

Getting past the hyperbole that has littered this thread regarding Rondo, I have to agree with the pragmatic opinions of Faf and Roy.

I'm one of the biggest Rondo supporters on this site but he does hold the ball a bit too much, but then again, in today's game, most PGs do. And it really doesn't matter the type of PG either. Whether you are a floor general type like Paul and Rondo or a shoot first guy like Rose or Westbrook, you tend to dominate the ball and the ball moves a whole lot less. It what the game has become with the advent of the three point line, stretch offenses, and smallish SGs with great handles that are too small to play the SG position in the much larger, current era of the NBA.

I think Stevens needs to change his offense. He's definitely at fault here. The system is awful.

The pace has to be improved when the efficiency isn't there, that's on Rondo.

The talent and general makeup of this team(loads of PFs and small guards, no centers, and a lack of ball handlers and shooters) is also to blame, that's on Danny.

The players in the system stink, that's on them.

Loads of blame to go around here. Singling out your one star and the team captain with 4 games to go in a season is ludicrous, Tommy. Respect for your knowledge and experience, but at this point, this is an off season matter to deal with between Stevens and Rondo. Sitting Rondo now for doing these things is just a ridiculous idea.

  I think to a certain extent this is just a throw-away season. We don't have the talent to succeed in any offensive system or even implement one well. How much time and effort should Stevens put into coming up with a game plan (that he'll never use again) that will wring a tiny bit more productivity or efficiency out of them? And does such a scheme even exist? The only real plan I'm seeing in this thread that might help is "run more".

  That works great if you have a transition opportunity but beyond that not so much. People believe that if the defense is set that rushing the ball up court and taking a quick shot will magically make us more efficient. It won't. Or we could have Rondo take off down the court whenever the other team shoots the ball, on the theory that the current bigs will hit him with a great outlet pass. That means we'll get fewer defensive rebounds and when the outlet's not there we'll be relying on players like Bradley and Bass to get the ball up court. What could go wrong there?

 

You are making a lot of generalities and oversimplifications just to make a point.

Pace isn't just running up the court. Its moving the ball quickly up the court before all five defenders have a chance to set and taking advantage of the quick openings available to get a shot off with more time left on the shot clock thereby creating more possessions per game.

I'm not about to go into the details of how to construct an offense around such a strategy, but its not that hard and has been done by tons of coaches and teams over the years.

Also, as a coach, you shouldn't be changing offensive systems year in and year out. Whether you have the players to run a system or not, you should be running your system from the get go so that players that do stay on the team learn and master the system and perform better in it. The last thing a coach wants is a player thinking through the system. It should come naturally and when a player knows it that well, they are more efficient in it.

So the idea that Stevens came in with a one year throw away system because he had bad players is a bit preposterous, if that is what you are alluding to. Coaches don't do that. His system sucks. He either needs to make major overhauls to it to adapt it to the pro game or scrap it entirely for a new one. Either way once he does he needs to stick to it for the rest of the time he is here.

If he keeps it, Stevens is gone in 1-2 years. Its that bad. It will cost him his job if he sticks to it, whether directly or indirectly.

[BballTim]

Getting past the hyperbole that has littered this thread regarding Rondo, I have to agree with the pragmatic opinions of Faf and Roy.

I'm one of the biggest Rondo supporters on this site but he does hold the ball a bit too much, but then again, in today's game, most PGs do. And it really doesn't matter the type of PG either. Whether you are a floor general type like Paul and Rondo or a shoot first guy like Rose or Westbrook, you tend to dominate the ball and the ball moves a whole lot less. It what the game has become with the advent of the three point line, stretch offenses, and smallish SGs with great handles that are too small to play the SG position in the much larger, current era of the NBA.

I think Stevens needs to change his offense. He's definitely at fault here. The system is awful.

The pace has to be improved when the efficiency isn't there, that's on Rondo.

The talent and general makeup of this team(loads of PFs and small guards, no centers, and a lack of ball handlers and shooters) is also to blame, that's on Danny.

The players in the system stink, that's on them.

Loads of blame to go around here. Singling out your one star and the team captain with 4 games to go in a season is ludicrous, Tommy. Respect for your knowledge and experience, but at this point, this is an off season matter to deal with between Stevens and Rondo. Sitting Rondo now for doing these things is just a ridiculous idea.

  I think to a certain extent this is just a throw-away season. We don't have the talent to succeed in any offensive system or even implement one well. How much time and effort should Stevens put into coming up with a game plan (that he'll never use again) that will wring a tiny bit more productivity or efficiency out of them? And does such a scheme even exist? The only real plan I'm seeing in this thread that might help is "run more".

  That works great if you have a transition opportunity but beyond that not so much. People believe that if the defense is set that rushing the ball up court and taking a quick shot will magically make us more efficient. It won't. Or we could have Rondo take off down the court whenever the other team shoots the ball, on the theory that the current bigs will hit him with a great outlet pass. That means we'll get fewer defensive rebounds and when the outlet's not there we'll be relying on players like Bradley and Bass to get the ball up court. What could go wrong there?

 

You are making a lot of generalities and oversimplifications just to make a point.

Pace isn't just running up the court. Its moving the ball quickly up the court before all five defenders have a chance to set and taking advantage of the quick openings available to get a shot off with more time left on the shot clock thereby creating more possessions per game.

I'm not about to go into the details of how to construct an offense around such a strategy, but its not that hard and has been done by tons of coaches and teams over the years.

Also, as a coach, you shouldn't be changing offensive systems year in and year out. Whether you have the players to run a system or not, you should be running your system from the get go so that players that do stay on the team learn and master the system and perform better in it. The last thing a coach wants is a player thinking through the system. It should come naturally and when a player knows it that well, they are more efficient in it.

So the idea that Stevens came in with a one year throw away system because he had bad players is a bit preposterous, if that is what you are alluding to. Coaches don't do that. His system sucks. He either needs to make major overhauls to it to adapt it to the pro game or scrap it entirely for a new one. Either way once he does he needs to stick to it for the rest of the time he is here.

If he keeps it, Stevens is gone in 1-2 years. Its that bad. It will cost him his job if he sticks to it, whether directly or indirectly.

  I'm not saying that Stevens should come up with a throw-away system, I'm saying he shouldn't, the same way Rondo shouldn't really quit trying to run a cohesive offense because the other players don't execute plays well. And I know what pace is. Shooting the ball earlier in the shot clock to create more possessions isn't really valuable because you're also creating an equal number of extra possessions for your opponents. Getting an efficient scoring opportunity is more important than how quickly you get your shot off. It's useful to get transition opportunities or to get into your offense before the defense gets set but if the defenders are back and you don't have numbers in the front court then rushing the ball up has limited value.

[CoachBo]

Rondo has been a ball stopper for a LOT longer than this "throw-away" season, and it's been discussed at length on this board before Tommy lent his credibility to the discussion. It is quite easy, at this point, to conclude that he wants to walk the ball up the floor, red herrings about rebounds, etc. notwithstanding.

This is an easy one: Rondo can either run the offense Stevens wants, or he has to go.

Period.

[D.o.s.]

Rondo has been a ball stopper for a LOT longer than this "throw-away" season, and it's been discussed at length on this board before Tommy lent his credibility to the discussion. It is quite easy, at this point, to conclude that he wants to walk the ball up the floor, red herrings about rebounds, etc. notwithstanding.

This is an easy one: Rondo can either run the offense Stevens wants, or he has to go.

Period.

I'd rather watch Rondo run a different offense?

[BballTim]

Rondo has been a ball stopper for a LOT longer than this "throw-away" season, and it's been discussed at length on this board before Tommy lent his credibility to the discussion. It is quite easy, at this point, to conclude that he wants to walk the ball up the floor, red herrings about rebounds, etc. notwithstanding.

  People that watch the games, see Rondo walk the ball up the court at times and don't pay any attention to all the possessions where he doesn't concluded long ago that Rondo wants to walk the ball up the floor. People that pay attention to all the possessions and not just the ones that confirm their bias would be rightly skeptical of this. The same holds for the "Rondo's a ball stopper" claim, unless the claim is "most point guards are ball stoppers". They're keeping track (on nba.com) of things like how many times a game players touch the ball and how long they hold onto the ball for. Unsurprisingly, Rondo's numbers aren't really out of line for point guards.

This is an easy one: Rondo can either run the offense Stevens wants, or he has to go.

Period.

  That would be meaningful if we had some evidence that Rondo isn't running the offense Stevens wants. All we know is that Rondo isn't running the offense Tommy wants or that some of the posters want. Stevens talks about wanting to run. So did Doc, so does every coach. That's a far cry from claiming that Rondo's refusing to run Brad's offense.

[fairweatherfan]

The same holds for the "Rondo's a ball stopper" claim, unless the claim is "most point guards are ball stoppers". They're keeping track (on nba.com) of things like how many times a game players touch the ball and how long they hold onto the ball for. Unsurprisingly, Rondo's numbers aren't really out of line for point guards.

I don't really take sides in the Rondo debates, but those numbers should be adjusted to account for Rondo playing fewer MPG than most other PGs. 

When switching from touches per game to touches per minute on the floor, Rondo goes from 4th in the league to a close second to Kemba Walker.   When total time of possession is changed to percentage of time possessing the ball while in the game, Rondo jumps from #3 to #1 in the league*.  The differences aren't dramatic but there's definitely some indications that Rondo touches and possesses the ball at an unusually high rate.

EDIT: Looking closer, Rondo also stands out as having an unusually low % of his touches in the frontcourt.  Meaning a lot of his ball-dominance in the numbers is from bringing the ball up more often than other PGs.  Maybe better and more diverse outlet passing would help, but unfortunately we rarely have any good secondary ball-handlers/playmakers on the court with Rondo.


Link to touch/possession stats: http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25

*I only looked at the top 25 guys in each category, so it's possible there's a bench guy who's ahead.

[BballTim]

The same holds for the "Rondo's a ball stopper" claim, unless the claim is "most point guards are ball stoppers". They're keeping track (on nba.com) of things like how many times a game players touch the ball and how long they hold onto the ball for. Unsurprisingly, Rondo's numbers aren't really out of line for point guards.

I don't really take sides in the Rondo debates, but those numbers should be adjusted to account for Rondo playing fewer MPG than most other PGs. 

When switching from touches per game to touches per minute on the floor, Rondo goes from 4th in the league to a close second to Kemba Walker.   When total time of possession is changed to percentage of time possessing the ball while in the game, Rondo jumps from #3 to #1 in the league*.  The differences aren't dramatic but there's definitely some indications that Rondo touches and possesses the ball at an unusually high rate.

EDIT: Looking closer, Rondo also stands out as having an unusually low % of his touches in the frontcourt.  Meaning a lot of his ball-dominance in the numbers is from bringing the ball up more often than other PGs.  Maybe better and more diverse outlet passing would help, but unfortunately we rarely have any good secondary ball-handlers/playmakers on the court with Rondo.


Link to touch/possession stats: http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingTouches.html?pageNo=1&rowsPerPage=25

*I only looked at the top 25 guys in each category, so it's possible there's a bench guy who's ahead.

  He was talking about Rondo being a ball stopper, so I was looking at the length of time he has the ball per touch (basically time of possession divided by number of possessions). In other words, if a player has the ball 3 times in a possession for 3 seconds each, he's not a ball stopper, if he has the ball once for 8 seconds he's a ball stopper even though it's less total possession. I checked the average time of possession for the top 7 players in terms of total possession, Rondo was 3rd out of 7 in terms of average length of possession. The difference between the players isn't really large.

[Tr1boy]

Bballtim whats real is with rondo we have lost alot of games. Even at 90 percent health you expect a better outcome.You have to maximize and work with the current team like tommy said. This is not a team with river, 3 hof. That style , design is over. Use some nice things from it but dont try to force it onto a totally diff team

With jcraw for example who is a diff kind of pg, bc he can shoot, we won many more games than rondo has with the current lineup. Winning is what counts in the end

Rondo wants the whole team to work around him it seems and that is nonsense imo. He is also a pg to make other better 1st , plus he is not a great 1 on 1 scorer that makes matters worse.

If we get some better help next season but we still lose , I hope your honest enough to say that rondo is not helping. If its the other way around I will admit I was not right.  You have an adv bc rondo will be healthier plus have more ammo.

[BballTim]

Bballtim whats real is with rondo we have lost alot of games. Even at 90 percent health you expect a better outcome.You have to maximize and work with the current team like tommy said. This is not a team with river, 3 hof. That style , design is over. Use some nice things from it but dont try to force it onto a totally diff team

  There's no reason to believe that if Rondo's healthier his playing style would be ineffective without 3 well past their prime hofers.

With jcraw for example who is a diff kind of pg, bc he can shoot, we won many more games than rondo has with the current lineup. Winning is what counts in the end

  Aside from the fact that Rondo's healthy, I wouldn't determine which player I wanted using your "who would help a lottery team win a few more games. Crawford shoots more, passes less and is a streaky player, all of which help on the current team but won't help on a good team.

Rondo wants the whole team to work around him it seems and that is nonsense imo. He is also a pg to make other better 1st , plus he is not a great 1 on 1 scorer that makes matters worse.

  What's nonsense is the way you try and come up with these bad motives for what you see on the court. The whole time Rondo was rehabbing with the team Stevens was talking about the things he wanted to run that he couldn't until Rondo was playing. Rondo starts playing, and Stevens changes the game plan like he said he would. Makes sense. More sense than your "Rondo wants the whole team to work around him" claim, or your posts about what a poor leader he is despite virtually all of his teammates completely disagreeing with you.

If we get some better help next season but we still lose , I hope your honest enough to say that rondo is not helping. If its the other way around I will admit I was not right.  You have an adv bc rondo will be healthier plus have more ammo.

  I've been watching Rondo playing for 8 years or so. I don't need to watch another season or so to know whether he helps a team win or not, just like I didn't have to wait until the big three left to know whether he'd still be able to get assists.

[Rondohara]

Sitting Rondo serves only one legitimate purpose: Avoiding an injury.

I think Tommy went a little extreme on the homer side there (or stuff will work without Rondo), and we like him for that, but sometimes it spurts some nonsense.

Celtics offense this season can be summed up in one word: junk.
Stevens offensive system is a low efficiency system with the "don't pass open shots" and keep moving mantras without a better way to find high percentage plays. And that was how Stevens was used to assembling a system, since he didn't have stars available.

Tommy has a lot of knowledge and his basketball 101 alone is more than any of the current nba "analysts". He want us to outrun the other team (and out position). What maybe he doesn't realize is that sometimes the other team is faster, more athletic and can run way better than our guys.  Some NBA players are pretty tough to outrun... He probably realizes that, but just saying we need to get other players is too harsh for such a homer heart.