Heinsohn: Sit Rondo if bad habits continue

[BballTim]

Beyond that though, the fact that people are quick to jump on Rondo for running plays because the other players don't execute well is both ridiculous and unsurprising. How many people are talking about who the players that can't execute plays are or criticizing them in the thread? Not many if any. How many are using Rondo's trying to execute an offense as another reason to trade him? Hilarious.

Well, I don't think you can have it both ways.  If Rondo is the best player on the team, and he is truly a star, then the burden is on him to lead the team and do the right things to help the team succeed.  Arguably, with the talent and experience being what it is on this team, that means that we should expect Rondo to adjust. 

Rondo's preference clearly is to dominate the ball, and to really slow down the pace and run plays at the end of tight games.  That style made sense a few years ago.  It doesn't play to the strengths of the current team -- insofar as this team has strengths -- at all.


I guess what I'm saying is that you can't tout Rondo's passing ability and general prowess as a floor general on the one hand (i.e. he makes the players around him better), and then when the team is failing to score points late in games despite having such a good passer say, "Well, you can't blame Rondo for having bad teammates."

  Exactly how is he supposed to change his game to play to the team's strengths? Specifically I mean. He generally makes an effort to get players open shots. What strategy would be better than that in terms of getting the best out of his teammates?

[BballTim]

This is more of a team problem then Rondo.

No way man. The guy has the ball in his hands 80 percent of the time. 

Tommy is right. Take off your rondo jersey , take a shower and read again

  Put your Rondo jersey on and re-read:

  "This team has to go and find opportunities without plays. They've got to be aggressive without plays because they don't execute that well yet"

  It's not that hard to understand why he's calling it a team problem.

I like the way you make this issue into a non issue. Tommy is not a happy camper. I would listen to a guy that has won more championships than Rondo, Ainge, Stevens and the current whole celtics team combined.

  So basically you're saying that when you read a quote that mentions we're having trouble running plays because most of the guys can't execute that the problem lies only with the player trying to run an organized offense and not the guys that can't run plays, and anyone that disagrees with you is "wearing a Rondo jersey". Hilarious.

Set plays worked before bc we had three HOF on the team. Even a team with three very good players might not be able to play half court, set plays, slow mo basketball majority of the time. So why bother trying to teach or make it work with a team with no all stars + youngsters??  Your not maximizing the team capabilities this way. This team has looked their best playing at a faster pace, scoring transition baskets

  Every team in the history of the league looks better scoring transition baskets. That's like saying "the Celts should try and shoot layups and dunk the ball, they look better on offense when they do that". What happens when the defense is back and set and we don't have the numbers for a break? Do we still run our transition offense because we look our best playing that way, or do you have something up your sleeve that will work great in the half court? If so, what is it?

[Fafnir]

On the rebounding, we're having our guards crash down the defensive glass since the first month or so. We were terrible on the defensive glass and Stevens talked about having the perimeter guys make sure to hunt down more boards while sully/humph/bass boxed out more. This allowed the team to get to average to somewhat above average on the defensive glass.

Rondo and Bradley are both putting up career high DREB% because of this scheme.

[BballTim]

We're middle of the pack in terms of rebounding. We may be undersized, but we rebound decently. Sullinger and Olynyk are both good passers.

However, you asked if Rondo grabbing rebounds is bad for our fastbreak and it's definitely not a good thing. It allows the defense to get back in transition and matchup accordingly. Having Rondo receive a pass near halfcourt puts immediate pressure on the defense and will set up easy baskets. Don't you think?

  We're 15th in the league in total rebound rate. When Rondo came back into the lineup we were 20th. We're 20th in defensive rebounding now, when Rondo started playing again we were 26th. In a related development, Rondo's tied for 1st among point guards in defensive rebounds per game.

 

[Tr1boy]

Beyond that though, the fact that people are quick to jump on Rondo for running plays because the other players don't execute well is both ridiculous and unsurprising. How many people are talking about who the players that can't execute plays are or criticizing them in the thread? Not many if any. How many are using Rondo's trying to execute an offense as another reason to trade him? Hilarious.

Well, I don't think you can have it both ways.  If Rondo is the best player on the team, and he is truly a star, then the burden is on him to lead the team and do the right things to help the team succeed.  Arguably, with the talent and experience being what it is on this team, that means that we should expect Rondo to adjust. 

Rondo's preference clearly is to dominate the ball, and to really slow down the pace and run plays at the end of tight games.  That style made sense a few years ago.  It doesn't play to the strengths of the current team -- insofar as this team has strengths -- at all.


I guess what I'm saying is that you can't tout Rondo's passing ability and general prowess as a floor general on the one hand (i.e. he makes the players around him better), and then when the team is failing to score points late in games despite having such a good passer say, "Well, you can't blame Rondo for having bad teammates."

  Exactly how is he supposed to change his game to play to the team's strengths? Specifically I mean. He generally makes an effort to get players open shots. What strategy would be better than that in terms of getting the best out of his teammates?

1) Run. Jog. Don't walk . This team plays best when pushing the pace
2) Instead of always barking for the ball after a defensive rebound, try to be the first one upcourt to try to get a transition layup
3) Make quicker decisions/passes. Whether it be to try to get transition baskets or in half court sets.   In PNR situations , either pass the ball to the man cutting to the basket or shoot the jump shot/drive in for a layup. Don't go through a pick and roll and still have the ball in your hands
4)  Move around the court more. Pass the ball and station yourself to the corner. Cut to the basket for layups. Let Green , KO, Sullinger be facilitators once in a while. Surprise the defense
5) Trust/work with your teammates.  Rondo has poor on court chemistry with Green, KO and most of the players in the team bc probably they don't take time to practice plays together. Practice after practice.  Look at Pressey and KO. They have chemistry and have some nice plays they worked on. You can tell.  If Rondo had some creative plays he worked with each one of the players or studied how they like to receive the ball, he would have alot more options. Right now he is passing on the fly or making more difficult passes than he has to.

[Tr1boy]

This is more of a team problem then Rondo.

No way man. The guy has the ball in his hands 80 percent of the time. 

Tommy is right. Take off your rondo jersey , take a shower and read again

  Put your Rondo jersey on and re-read:

  "This team has to go and find opportunities without plays. They've got to be aggressive without plays because they don't execute that well yet"

  It's not that hard to understand why he's calling it a team problem.

I like the way you make this issue into a non issue. Tommy is not a happy camper. I would listen to a guy that has won more championships than Rondo, Ainge, Stevens and the current whole celtics team combined.

  So basically you're saying that when you read a quote that mentions we're having trouble running plays because most of the guys can't execute that the problem lies only with the player trying to run an organized offense and not the guys that can't run plays, and anyone that disagrees with you is "wearing a Rondo jersey". Hilarious.

Set plays worked before bc we had three HOF on the team. Even a team with three very good players might not be able to play half court, set plays, slow mo basketball majority of the time. So why bother trying to teach or make it work with a team with no all stars + youngsters??  Your not maximizing the team capabilities this way. This team has looked their best playing at a faster pace, scoring transition baskets

  Every team in the history of the league looks better scoring transition baskets. That's like saying "the Celts should try and shoot layups and dunk the ball, they look better on offense when they do that". What happens when the defense is back and set and we don't have the numbers for a break? Do we still run our transition offense because we look our best playing that way, or do you have something up your sleeve that will work great in the half court? If so, what is it?

Rondo doesn't even try to push the pace. When was the last time you saw him score a transition layup or pass up the ball quickly so one can be scored? He has some kind of habit, pattern he is used to and you can't bother that. He grabs the defensive rebound or asks for the ball after a rebound, walks up the court, raises his hand to call a play, looks around left and right, starts yelling at guys to run around this way or that way. Already 10 seconds or more has past at this point. He keeps looking around, he gets  a pick, but doesn't pass to the man rolling to the basket (alot of the times), nor shoots , nor drives. Keeps looking. There is now less than 10 seconds left in the clock, he keeps looking, rushes to the basket, gets attention and makes short passes to someone down low or a back pass to the guy trailing him. 

He has done this like a million times since the start of last season.   In a game you got several chances to score at least a few transition buckets. For example when alot of other members of the opposing team crashes the board for an offensive rebound or tip in etc. You need to next try to get a transition bucket. But instead, Rondo does the same thing as i have listead above, slowing down the pace.  It's very frustrating to watch.

When Pressey is on for example. He never walks with the ball. Every opportunity he gets he is trying to push the pace. Even when passing the ball , he makes up his mind quickly , rewards guys who sets him picks by passing the ball to them, or finds the open shooter for jump shots.  He tries to get or pass for transition layups whenever he can.   I've seen several times when pressey is on the court (or the team last year without Rondo) the ball zipping, left to the right, making the defense run around like crazy, until the open man gets it and gets the open shot in. It's beautiful basketball.  I have not seen this kind of play once with Rondo on the court.

anyways, i hope Rondo has heard/read what Tommy said. I hope he changes his way.  Hopefully it will start tomorrow (i been saying this for the longest time now).

[Vox_Populi]

We're middle of the pack in terms of rebounding. We may be undersized, but we rebound decently. Sullinger and Olynyk are both good passers.

However, you asked if Rondo grabbing rebounds is bad for our fastbreak and it's definitely not a good thing. It allows the defense to get back in transition and matchup accordingly. Having Rondo receive a pass near halfcourt puts immediate pressure on the defense and will set up easy baskets. Don't you think?

  We're 15th in the league in total rebound rate. When Rondo came back into the lineup we were 20th. We're 20th in defensive rebounding now, when Rondo started playing again we were 26th. In a related development, Rondo's tied for 1st among point guards in defensive rebounds per game.
 

It's also worth pointing out that Rondo's return coincides with an increase in the Celtics' possessions per game, probably a product of the extra rebounding. And Boston's fast break points per game haven't changed nearly at all since Rondo's come back.

The point is, it's one thing being disappointed that Rondo's return didn't increase how much the Celtics score in transition. It's another to feel like he's a detriment to their ability to do so. This team just struggles to get easy baskets. It's a personnel problem as much as a preferential one.

[BballTim]

This is more of a team problem then Rondo.

No way man. The guy has the ball in his hands 80 percent of the time. 

Tommy is right. Take off your rondo jersey , take a shower and read again

  Put your Rondo jersey on and re-read:

  "This team has to go and find opportunities without plays. They've got to be aggressive without plays because they don't execute that well yet"

  It's not that hard to understand why he's calling it a team problem.

I like the way you make this issue into a non issue. Tommy is not a happy camper. I would listen to a guy that has won more championships than Rondo, Ainge, Stevens and the current whole celtics team combined.

  So basically you're saying that when you read a quote that mentions we're having trouble running plays because most of the guys can't execute that the problem lies only with the player trying to run an organized offense and not the guys that can't run plays, and anyone that disagrees with you is "wearing a Rondo jersey". Hilarious.

Set plays worked before bc we had three HOF on the team. Even a team with three very good players might not be able to play half court, set plays, slow mo basketball majority of the time. So why bother trying to teach or make it work with a team with no all stars + youngsters??  Your not maximizing the team capabilities this way. This team has looked their best playing at a faster pace, scoring transition baskets

  Every team in the history of the league looks better scoring transition baskets. That's like saying "the Celts should try and shoot layups and dunk the ball, they look better on offense when they do that". What happens when the defense is back and set and we don't have the numbers for a break? Do we still run our transition offense because we look our best playing that way, or do you have something up your sleeve that will work great in the half court? If so, what is it?

Rondo doesn't even try to push the pace. When was the last time you saw him score a transition layup or pass up the ball quickly so one can be scored? He has some kind of habit, pattern he is used to and you can't bother that. He grabs the defensive rebound or asks for the ball after a rebound, walks up the court, raises his hand to call a play, looks around left and right, starts yelling at guys to run around this way or that way. Already 10 seconds or more has past at this point. He keeps looking around, he gets  a pick, but doesn't pass to the man rolling to the basket (alot of the times), nor shoots , nor drives. Keeps looking. There is now less than 10 seconds left in the clock, he keeps looking, rushes to the basket, gets attention and makes short passes to someone down low or a back pass to the guy trailing him. 

He has done this like a million times since the start of last season.   In a game you got several chances to score at least a few transition buckets. For example when alot of other members of the opposing team crashes the board for an offensive rebound or tip in etc. You need to next try to get a transition bucket. But instead, Rondo does the same thing as i have listead above, slowing down the pace.  It's very frustrating to watch.

When Pressey is on for example. He never walks with the ball. Every opportunity he gets he is trying to push the pace. Even when passing the ball , he makes up his mind quickly , rewards guys who sets him picks by passing the ball to them, or finds the open shooter for jump shots.  He tries to get or pass for transition layups whenever he can.   I've seen several times when pressey is on the court (or the team last year without Rondo) the ball zipping, left to the right, making the defense run around like crazy, until the open man gets it and gets the open shot in. It's beautiful basketball.  I have not seen this kind of play once with Rondo on the court.

  Rondo pushes the ball on offense when there's a chance at a transition basket and he frequently passes the ball to people ahead of him. As for transition points, we're scoring just as many now as we did before Rondo came back. Just like we didn't score any more after Rondo's injury last year than we did before Rondo's injury. You could have also checked on 82games, which keeps track of what percentages of our shots come at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the shot clock. Those numbers were virtually unchanged after Rondo's injury. I'm also pretty sure that we were having more shot clock violations after Rondo was injured.

  You watch games looking to see Rondo walk the ball up, you see it happen at times and pay no attention when it doesn't. That's why you (and others) say things like "when's the last time you saw Rondo..." do something that he does almost every game. Does Rondo score transition baskets? Of course he does. Does he get assists in transition? Yes, on a regular basis.

[sed522002]

Rondo doesn't even try to push the pace. When was the last time you saw him score a transition layup or pass up the ball quickly so one can be scored?

Come on now...let's not say that he doesn't try to push the pace...he walks the ball and he does run the ball as well. You may only notice when he's walking the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cEo9FZR-O0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTnpDH_R1Nc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZ9sI9MucBA

[nickagneta]

Where is the quote from? Where's the link?

I would love to read the whole article to put the quote in the proper context because the OP is leading us to believe Heinsohn is talking about holding the ball too much on offense but that's not said in the quote. It could be Rondo's habit of coasting on defense or Rondo's habit of passing up open layups for a kick out jumper that he is talking about for all I know.

There's a big article on the front page of CB that should have anything you'd want to see, Nick.

TP thanks Boris. I don't visit the front page anymore.

You should start! =)

I think I will. Thanks for the invite back.

[PhoSita]

Beyond that though, the fact that people are quick to jump on Rondo for running plays because the other players don't execute well is both ridiculous and unsurprising. How many people are talking about who the players that can't execute plays are or criticizing them in the thread? Not many if any. How many are using Rondo's trying to execute an offense as another reason to trade him? Hilarious.

Well, I don't think you can have it both ways.  If Rondo is the best player on the team, and he is truly a star, then the burden is on him to lead the team and do the right things to help the team succeed.  Arguably, with the talent and experience being what it is on this team, that means that we should expect Rondo to adjust. 

Rondo's preference clearly is to dominate the ball, and to really slow down the pace and run plays at the end of tight games.  That style made sense a few years ago.  It doesn't play to the strengths of the current team -- insofar as this team has strengths -- at all.


I guess what I'm saying is that you can't tout Rondo's passing ability and general prowess as a floor general on the one hand (i.e. he makes the players around him better), and then when the team is failing to score points late in games despite having such a good passer say, "Well, you can't blame Rondo for having bad teammates."

  Exactly how is he supposed to change his game to play to the team's strengths? Specifically I mean. He generally makes an effort to get players open shots. What strategy would be better than that in terms of getting the best out of his teammates?

Hold onto the ball less.  Push the pace.  Look for opportunities earlier in the shot clock.  Force the issue and try to get to the line or create his own shot.  In general, keep the team running and try to take advantage of the fact that the Celtics have more young legs on the floor than most of their opponents do.

Grinding down the shot clock and running Green or Bradley off multiple screens, or trying to set up a pick and pop play with Bass or Sullinger, is just not likely to yield good results.  Those guys are several tiers below Pierce, Allen, and Garnett.

[D.o.s.]

If we get exum , he will be tommys new favorite player.

Draft exum and trade rondo to sac for a top 10 pick works for me

McLemore and Sacto's pick looks like an awesome return. Rondo's ball dominant game isn't well suited for Stevens' motion offense because he can't shoot. We are now 6-23 since Rondo returned. We were 13-24 with Crawford.

On the flip side Stevens's (singular possessive) motion offense definitely isn't well suited to the NBA.

What do you think the triangle is?

I bolded the important bit for you.

But, since we're talking about the triangle offense, remember when  Minnesota tried to adapt the triangle under Kurt Rambis with Johnny Flynn?

[PhoSita]

Johnny Flynn?

Man, what an epic fail that pick was.

[LatterDayCelticsfan]

I like Tommy's reasoning. Even if Rondo's not the main cause of lack of ball movement (remember, last seasons playoffs, and the 1st half of the season?) making an example out of the team captain by benching him killing ball movement is a calculated risk that BS, should chew over.

[Rondo9]

I like Tommy's reasoning. Even if Rondo's not the main cause of lack of ball movement (remember, last seasons playoffs, and the 1st half of the season?) making an example out of the team captain by benching him killing ball movement is a calculated risk that BS, should chew over.

So punish him even though he's not the cause of the offense being ineffective?