Big Man debate

[pearljammer10]

Since Bill and Wilt go added that changes my vote and the heirarchy of the places they come in.

Talent wise I go.

Bill>Wilt>Kareem>Hakeem>Duncan>Shaq>KG

As far as my pick, I chose Duncan (before Bill was an option...And also can't believe Im the ONLY one to choose Duncan, absurd). Reason being I think he makes his teammates that much better and more confident and I have never watched a more clutch player with my own two eyes than Mr. Duncan. Anytime the Spurs needed a big game, he delivered throughout his prime.

Hard to leave Dirk off. He is certainly at the back end of the list due to his defense....But offensively he is one of the greatest players to watch that has ever played. I have never seen Dirk take a shot where I have said, "Yikes, there's no way thats going in." Every time he shoots the ball is looks like its going to be nothing but net, its quite amazing.

And for a year and a half Bill Walton was the greatest basketball player to ever play the game...Its a shame his career was ended because of his body.

[Roy H.]

I agree - there is not one guy that has ever played in the NBA that could handle Shaq one on one in his prime. 

Shaq was a dominant player, but this is largely hyperbole.  Hakeem, for instance, did a great job neutralizing Shaq when they were both near their primes.

I'd hardly say Hakeem neutralized 22 year old Shaq.  In the finals, which Houston swept, Shaq averaged a "terrible" 28 points, 12.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, and 2.5 blocks on a "meager" 59.5% from the field (only the points were below his season average and only slightly, everything else was an improvement).  In fact, 22 year old Shaq, basically out-performed 32 year old Hakeem the entire series.   Hakeem just had a much deeper team while it was basically the Shaq & Penny show for Orlando.

Over 20 regular season games (which encompassed Shaq's prime and Hakeem's declining years), Hakeem held Shaq to 22 points per game on 54% shooting.  He didn't stop him, but he certainly neutralized him.  Shaq only outscored Hakeem by 3.7 points per game, despite playing more minutes.  Their battles were largely a wash.

As for the playoff series you cited, Hakeem outscored Shaq in all four games they played.  If that's not neutralizing him, I'm not sure what is.  (As for the depth of their squads, I'm not sure that Horry + Smith + Elie + Cassell is that much better than Grant + Anderson + Scott + Shaw, and Penny was better than Drexler at that stage.)

Shaq was a dominant player, but he wasn't the unstoppable beast that sometimes gets portrayed.  There were defensive players who could limit him, without question.

[Eddie20]

I agree - there is not one guy that has ever played in the NBA that could handle Shaq one on one in his prime. 

Shaq was a dominant player, but this is largely hyperbole.  Hakeem, for instance, did a great job neutralizing Shaq when they were both near their primes.

You say hyperbole, I say spot on accurate.

Shaq had just come into the league when they matched up.  Hakeem was just barely on the downside of his 'prime'.  Big difference there, mainly, experience.

Sorry, when Shaq was a Laker, during their title runs, you could place any big man against him and he would have had his way with them.  As I stated before, too strong and athletic for anyone to handle...

Exactly. Shaq was so dominant that Pop would do anything possible not to put Duncan on him for fear of foul problems. Instead, pop would put Malik Rose on Shaq.

[mmmmm]

End of the day, I take a 'prime' Shaq over any other center, of any era.  He couldn't be stopped.  Kareem wouldn't be able to, and I'm not sure even Wilt/Russ could either.

Doesn't mean Shaq had the greatest career, but his peak was better than anyone else's.

Overall career success, I'd go Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Olajawon, Duncan, Chamberlain. I'm not including KG, he was a PF (and the best ever at that).

I just can't get past your rankings, there.

In his peak - which lasted far longer - Wilt was far more of the "he couldn't be stopped" dominating offensive force than Shaq ever was.   As Roy points out, a season where you average 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds is just absurd.

Even from ages 29-36 in the early 70s NBA with a ton of great big-men like Kareem, Cowens, Unseld, Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier & others, Wilt led the league in rebounding per game in 7 of his last 8 seasons!!!!  The one season he _didn't_ lead in that was because he was injured and only played in 12 games.  Though, he still averaged, 27.3 ppg & 18.4 rebounds per game at age 33 in those 12 games!   He went on to average 20 & 18 the next full season.

Wilt was also a great passer, averaging 4.4 assists per game for his career, which doesn't really do justice.  He averaged 8.6 assists per game in '68, which I think is the highest per-game average for a season by a PF or C, ever.

It makes no sense to me that he should be ranked behind Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan or even Kareem.

Wilt was 7-1 and 270-280 lbs.   "He couldn't be stopped."

Except by Russell.

I grew up watching the last few years of Wilt & Russell and got to see all those other guys play through their whole careers.   Russell and Wilt were, imho, two of the 3 or 4 greatest basketball players to play, ever, at any position.  And, imho, easily the #1 & #2 big men.

And that isn't just about 'how weak' their era was.  These two guys were world-class athletes by any measure.  Russell was a world-class high jumper and middle-distance runner.  Same with Wilt, though he also was a stud in the field events (throwing).

[Roy H.]

And for a year and a half Bill Walton was the greatest basketball player to ever play the game...

I think this is probably a little bit of hyperbole, too.  Great, yes, but not the greatest.

I mean, even in his dominant season, he averaged 19/12/5 on 52% shooting (and great defense).  His impact probably went beyond numbers, but not to the height of greatest player (or big man) ever.

[Moranis]

I agree - there is not one guy that has ever played in the NBA that could handle Shaq one on one in his prime. 

Shaq was a dominant player, but this is largely hyperbole.  Hakeem, for instance, did a great job neutralizing Shaq when they were both near their primes.

I'd hardly say Hakeem neutralized 22 year old Shaq.  In the finals, which Houston swept, Shaq averaged a "terrible" 28 points, 12.5 rebounds, 6.3 assists, and 2.5 blocks on a "meager" 59.5% from the field (only the points were below his season average and only slightly, everything else was an improvement).  In fact, 22 year old Shaq, basically out-performed 32 year old Hakeem the entire series.   Hakeem just had a much deeper team while it was basically the Shaq & Penny show for Orlando.

Over 20 regular season games (which encompassed Shaq's prime and Hakeem's declining years), Hakeem held Shaq to 22 points per game on 54% shooting.  He didn't stop him, but he certainly neutralized him.  Shaq only outscored Hakeem by 3.7 points per game, despite playing more minutes.  Their battles were largely a wash.

As for the playoff series you cited, Hakeem outscored Shaq in all four games they played.  If that's not neutralizing him, I'm not sure what is.  (As for the depth of their squads, I'm not sure that Horry + Smith + Elie + Cassell is that much better than Grant + Anderson + Scott + Shaw, and Penny was better than Drexler at that stage.)

Shaq was a dominant player, but he wasn't the unstoppable beast that sometimes gets portrayed.  There were defensive players who could limit him, without question.

I agree with you in most of this, I was just pointing out that Hakeem hardly neutralized him, but on the same token it wasn't like Shaq was neutralizing Hakeem either.  That is the thing about great players, they are always great, even when matched head to head against other great players.  Bad games every so often, but by and large they dominate their peers (even the other great ones). 

For my money, I'd still take Wilt every single day of the week.  The most physically gifted person to ever play in the league, with conditioning for years, and the all around skills to match. 

[bdm860]

Doesn't mean Shaq had the greatest career, but his peak was better than anyone else's.

In Shaq's best year, he put up 29.7 points and 13.6 rebounds.  As dominant and great as he was, I don't think that matches up to Wilt's or Kareem's best seasons.  I mean, it's easy to discount Wilt due to his era, but 50.4 points and 25.7 rebounds is hard to minimize.

If we're talking just pure statistics, sure.  Wilt trumps them all, but I don't think anyone has him as their overall 'best'.  And I do discount his stats due to era somewhat.  He had almost no competition.  The one player who could truly match him, Russell, never allowed him those kinds of averages.  Wilt would never get those averages in today's NBA.  I think Kareem could come really close to matching Shaq, mainly because Shaq would have a hard time with Kareem's skill (he could pass too).  The sky hook will forever be the most unstoppable shot in basketball.

I don't know if we'll ever see a player of Shaq's combination size, athleticism, and agility ever again.  It's a shame he wasn't more dedicated, the debate would be moot.

You are wrong on Wilt.  Wilt dominated Bill head to head.  In fact he was generally above his averages against Bill.  Bill just had vastly superior teammates for much of their time. 

No doubt Wilt was a physically gifted player (similar to Lebron in that respect), but he was also a very good overall player.  He had all the skills and he never came out of the game.  He averaged 48.5 minutes one year.  He ran up and down the court all game long and just didn't quit.  Sure he was tall, but he was in incredible shape and was stronger than anyone else in the league by a very wide margin (contrary to popular belief, he was not the only 7'er in the league and was often not the tallest player in the league).  His coach asked him to score, so he did.  His coach asked him to pass, so he led the league in assists.  Yes he was prickly to deal with at times and clashed with some of his coaches, but very few of the all time greats didn't (I mean look at Jordan). 

Wilt Chamberlain is the greatest player to ever play the game.

I am definitely in awe over Wilt Chamberlain.

Whenever I read books/articles on him, or read basketball books/articles written in the 60's or 70's, or read books from guys who actually played during his time, I'm just amazed at this guy’s legend, and as popular as he is, I feel like he's still under-appreciated.

Wilt was like a 7'1" LeBron playing against NCAA level talent.

I think his personality issues are what hurt him.  More like a Marbury on the court.  Getting his stats and looking good and making sure the spotlight was on him were more important than actually winning, he only wanted to do things his way.  Where people talk about his supporting cast compared to Russell’s, I feel like if Wilt played on the Celtics, they would not have won 11 championships in 13 years.  If Russell played on Wilt’s teams he would have won more than 2 rings.  So I don’t think it’s fair to point to the supporting cast as the reason Wilt’s star doesn't shine as bright.

But still Wilt’s skill, ability, and dominance was just amazing.  From a physically dominate, individual standpoint, ya he’s probably the greatest ever.  But since basketball is a team sport, he loses some points in the greatest ever department.

[pearljammer10]

And for a year and a half Bill Walton was the greatest basketball player to ever play the game...

I think this is probably a little bit of hyperbole, too.  Great, yes, but not the greatest.

I mean, even in his dominant season, he averaged 19/12/5 on 52% shooting (and great defense).  His impact probably went beyond numbers, but not to the height of greatest player (or big man) ever.

Ok I'll change my quote...

Bill Walton was arguably the greatest college basketball player to ever play the game. If he hadn't gotten injured the same could have been said for his NBA career but we'll never know.

[D.o.s.]

Luckily, the Wilt Chamberlain Archive has really stepped up it's youtube game, so now there's actually footage out there for people to see.

It's absurd, but it's true -- Chamberlain is crazily underrated by modern sports fans.

Here's some Prime Kareem against an Older Wilt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

[mmmmm]

Luckily, the Wilt Chamberlain Archive has really stepped up it's youtube game, so now there's actually footage out there for people to see.

It's absurd, but it's true -- Chamberlain is crazily underrated by modern sports fans.

Here's some Prime Kareem against an Older Wilt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

My favorite thing about watching these old vids is how good of passers these guys were as bigs.  I love the scene where Kareem just tosses an outlet pass off a rebound as if it were a baseball!

Gawd that sky-hook was ridiculous.

[fitzhickey]

Where are all Duncan's votes??

[KGs Knee]

I stand by my earlier statement.  I take prime "LA" Shaq over all the rest.  I feel comfortable he'd win any matchup.

[D.o.s.]

Luckily, the Wilt Chamberlain Archive has really stepped up it's youtube game, so now there's actually footage out there for people to see.

It's absurd, but it's true -- Chamberlain is crazily underrated by modern sports fans.

Here's some Prime Kareem against an Older Wilt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

My favorite thing about watching these old vids is how good of passers these guys were as bigs.  I love the scene where Kareem just tosses an outlet pass off a rebound as if it were a baseball!

Gawd that sky-hook was ridiculous.

My favorite thing about youtube is the dearth of NBA/ABA/Vintage hoops footage. It's incredible.

[Timdawgg]

Luckily, the Wilt Chamberlain Archive has really stepped up it's youtube game, so now there's actually footage out there for people to see.

It's absurd, but it's true -- Chamberlain is crazily underrated by modern sports fans.

Here's some Prime Kareem against an Older Wilt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2U4JSrpO78

Thanks for the video...Wilt is the best hands down, but Russell if you want to win.

Wilt looks Dominant Like Shaq did in these videos and his Laker Days were way past his prime.  He was 32 When he went to the Lakers.  The Year before he averaged 24 pts 24 Rb and 8.6 assists...Ridiculous...

[Vox_Populi]

Yeah, I say Shaq. That guy was battering ram.