No longer believe Rondo could become a decent shooter

[D.o.s.]

I don't think last year's playoffs is that good an indicator of how a Westbrook-less OKC would properly fair.

I do think it's about as good as you'd need, given the relative amount of lip service that Westbrook's game is given because he's on the same team as Saint Kevin.

Shallow analysis deserves shallow analysis (not that thirstyboots was giving shallow analysis, but in general the "westbrook shoots too much, he should just give it to KD" crowd does).

[PhoSita]

I think the Thunder would be a worse team if you swapped Westbrook for a passer like Rondo.

I don't agree with this.

Westbrook being a greater scoring threat may open up the defense but it also requires a willing passer.  Westbrook isn't unwilling but he isn't remotely on Rondo's level in that regard.

I think Rondo's ability to run plays, plays that can work to get Durant easier, open shots would just make him much more efficient (than he already is).  I think it would also serve to get more consistent offense from the other players on the team.  Ibaka is good enough to be the 'number 2' scoring option with Rondo being number 3.

Basically, what you'd lose in individual scoring would be made up for, and then some, with improved efficiency of the overall offense, and most importantly, your best player.

Interestingly, an efficient offense can have a positive effect on transition defense as well.

It depends on the Rondo OKC would be getting.

Like Faf mentioned, if you're getting the dribble/pentrate Rondo, then I think he's a better fit for OKC.  When Rondo is aggressive & pressing inside offensively, he is a helluva basketball player either finishing at the rim or with the kick outs.  The problem is we haven't seen a lot of that post-injury.

I think Rondo would have to change his style to be more aggressive and hold onto the ball for shorter periods of time.

I don't think the Thunder would be better with Rondo running pick and pops with Ibaka and running Durant off screens all day.

The Thunder are built to revolve around two high volume scorers.  Take Westbrook away and replace him with Rondo and you'd need to add scoring elsewhere.  I think it might have worked well back when the Thunder had Harden waiting to take on a bigger scoring load, but not so much now.

[Vox_Populi]

I don't think last year's playoffs is that good an indicator of how a Westbrook-less OKC would properly fair.

I do think it's about as good as you'd need, given the relative amount of lip service that Westbrook's game is given because he's on the same team as Saint Kevin.

Shallow analysis deserves shallow analysis (not that thirstyboots was giving shallow analysis, but in general the "westbrook shoots too much, he should just give it to KD" crowd does).

Fair enough. There were just other aspects that contributed to their early demise.

[thirstyboots18]

I think the Thunder would be a worse team if you swapped Westbrook for a passer like Rondo.

I don't agree with this.

Westbrook being a greater scoring threat may open up the defense but it also requires a willing passer.  Westbrook isn't unwilling but he isn't remotely on Rondo's level in that regard.

I think Rondo's ability to run plays, plays that can work to get Durant easier, open shots would just make him much more efficient (than he already is).  I think it would also serve to get more consistent offense from the other players on the team.  Ibaka is good enough to be the 'number 2' scoring option with Rondo being number 3.

Basically, what you'd lose in individual scoring would be made up for, and then some, with improved efficiency of the overall offense, and most importantly, your best player.

Interestingly, an efficient offense can have a positive effect on transition defense as well.

It depends on the Rondo OKC would be getting.

Like Faf mentioned, if you're getting the dribble/pentrate Rondo, then I think he's a better fit for OKC.  When Rondo is aggressive & pressing inside offensively, he is a helluva basketball player either finishing at the rim or with the kick outs.  The problem is we haven't seen a lot of that post-injury.

I think Rondo would have to change his style to be more aggressive and hold onto the ball for shorter periods of time.

I don't think the Thunder would be better with Rondo running pick and pops with Ibaka and running Durant off screens all day.

The Thunder are built to revolve around two high volume scorers.  Take Westbrook away and replace him with Rondo and you'd need to add scoring elsewhere.  I think it might have worked well back when the Thunder had Harden waiting to take on a bigger scoring load, but not so much now.

I agree with this, however, I do not think it is a Rondo problem as much as a coaching system problem.  There have been games (when healthy, and on a better(?) team) that Rondo's shooting has carried the team.  I personally don't like watching two styles of basketball:  1. Three point contest.  Hated O'B ball;   2.  Point guard dominated scoring. Don't care for the Westbrook system.    Maybe my view is dated...it is formed by 50+ years of watching "old school basketball" after all.   I don't think I have been fair to Westbrook...am changing my statement to:  "Don't care for the Iverson system"  since I lean toward feeling  that it is more a coaching decision.

[D.o.s.]

Totally fair.

Iverson was definitely a shooting guard, though. 

[jaketwice]

So you like that Russell Westbrook is a volume shooter....at the expense of one of the better scorers in the league?  I don't think it is dated at all to prefer him to pass to Durant.

Yes, I do.  Russell Westbrook makes the Thunder a more dangerous and efficient offensive team.  Generating offense for teammates isn't always about passing to them right when they are about to shoot.  Dribble penetration and generally pressuring the defense are invaluable.

I think the Thunder would be a worse team if you swapped Westbrook for a passer like Rondo.

I disagree. My grandmother would look good playing with Durant. Durant is borderline 50/40/90 club (he shoots 87.1% FTs).

 Every team that has ever had a 504090 player has made the playoffs. EVERY. SINGLE. TEAM. Granted, Durant is not quite a member - but just consider how great - truly great - he is. The guy is second in the league in scoring. Five assists, seven rebounds per game.

Rondo would significantly relieve the pressure on Durant, on that team, because he makes the other players on the floor more of a threat. Westbrook is simply, himself, a threat. ...but there is no other NBA player who is MORE of a threat, than Durant. As such, surrounding him with more total threats is more valuable than having one other guy who's really good. You can guard two guys - Rondo forces you to guard the whole team.

Look at Jeff Green when Rondo plays, and when he doesn't.

[gpap]

Makes two of us.

[kozlodoev]

Look at Jeff Green when Rondo plays, and when he doesn't.

I have not seen a discernible difference this season, have you?

[PhoSita]

  I personally don't like watching two styles of basketball:  1. Three point contest.  Hated O'B ball;   2.  Point guard dominated scoring. Don't care for the Westbrook system.    Maybe my view is dated...it is formed by 50+ years of watching "old school basketball" after all.   I don't think I have been fair to Westbrook...am changing my statement to:  "Don't care for the Iverson system"  since I lean toward feeling  that it is more a coaching decision.

I totally understand.  Having a preference for watching particular styles is totally fair.

I'm not a big fan of iso-heavy ball, either.  Personally I love watching basketball the way that the Spurs play it.  I don't mind heavy reliance on outside shooting, as long as those shots are generated by ball movement, dribble penetration, and overall smart play. 

Generally I enjoy when a team has a lot of good passers at various positions and makes full use of that.  I love it when teams have big men who can pass out of the high post for that reason. 

The Knicks, as a contrast, are an example of a three-point happy team that I don't enjoy watching, since so many of their outside shots come out of iso plays or simply whipping the ball around the perimeter until somebody is finally open or the shot clock is about to expire.  Their point guard play also stinks, aside from days when Ray Felton and Tyson Chandler are healthy and feel like trying and they run so nifty pick and rolls.

[BballTim]

Volume shooters, especially point guards, are often one man losing teams.

I still see this idea put out there from time to time, but it seems dated to me.

Looking around the league, a number of really good teams are led by point guards that score quite a lot of points.  Stephen Curry, Damian Lillard, and Russell Westbrook are at the top of that list.

I don't want Rondo trying to be a volume shooter because I don't think that's his game.  He doesn't have the skillset to take 20-25 shots a night.  He isn't at his best when that's who he's trying to be.  I do think that for Rondo to continue playing at a high level into his mid 30's, he's going to need to become a reliable spot-up three point shooter the way that Jason Kidd did.  Otherwise he'll be more of a borderline starter a la Andre Miller.

So you like that Russell Westbrook is a volume shooter....at the expense of one of the better scorers in the league?  I don't think it is dated at all to prefer him to pass to Durant.

Did you just not watch the Thunder in last year's playoffs?

"Give the ball to Durant" is not a strategy you can use to win in the post-season. The Thunder need Westbrook and/or another high-level, viable scoring threat in order to keep KD playing at his best.

  There's a difference between "give the ball to Durant" and "hit Durant with a good pass when he's in a good position to score". One would be successful, one not so much.

[mmmmm]

Look at Jeff Green when Rondo plays, and when he doesn't.

I have not seen a discernible difference this season, have you?

Well, dropping the first few games since (a) Rondo was really really rusty and (b) they overlapped with Green shooting like Perkins for two weeks following his shoulder injury, since Feb 5, when on the floor with Rondo, Green's eFG is just under 47% while without Rondo it is just over 44%.   He is scoring slightly more without Rondo, at 20 points per 36 compared to 19 per 36 with him, but less efficiently.   His USG has skyrocketed when Rondo is not on the floor with him during this span, from just over 23% to over 29%.

All of it small sample, of course.

Most of his other numbers have been similar.

On overriding concern I have is that even though he's shooting better over the last month and a half, Green has yet to climb back to shooting near as well as he was throughout the year up to the Rockets game when he hurt his shoulder.  He was shooting a very solid 37.3% to that point beyond the arc.  He has barely shot over 32% in Feb & March.

I'm suspecting that his shoulder is still bothering him.

[kozlodoev]

Look at Jeff Green when Rondo plays, and when he doesn't.

I have not seen a discernible difference this season, have you?

Well, dropping the first few games since (a) Rondo was really really rusty and (b) they overlapped with Green shooting like Perkins for two weeks following his shoulder injury, since Feb 5, when on the floor with Rondo, Green's eFG is just under 47% while without Rondo it is just over 44%.   He is scoring slightly more without Rondo, at 20 points per 36 compared to 19 per 36 with him, but less efficiently.   His USG has skyrocketed when Rondo is not on the floor with him during this span, from just over 23% to over 29%.

All of it small sample, of course.

Most of his other numbers have been similar.

On overriding concern I have is that even though he's shooting better over the last month and a half, Green has yet to climb back to shooting near as well as he was throughout the year up to the Rockets game when he hurt his shoulder.  He was shooting a very solid 37.3% to that point beyond the arc.  He has barely shot over 32% in Feb & March.

I'm suspecting that his shoulder is still bothering him.

Green did just fine without Rondo prior to the injury. If we concede that the injury was a significant factor in Green's performance, I don't see Rondo's presence doing much for his efficiency.