Celtics actually not 'good enough' with Rondo and Green

[BballTim]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

  Kind of like Earhardt Jr. with a crappy car. With people telling everyone who will listen that the fact that he can't win Daytona with that crappy car means he isn't a good driver.

I've seen Earhardt Jr with a crappy car... He still finished 2nd one year.  It's called LeBron James on the Cavs.  50-66 wins + a Finals appearance.

This is more like Fat Lever running the 37 win 1987 Nuggets had Fat Lever not had an Alex English (28.9ppg) to pass the ball to.

I'm not knocking it... I'm just saying I dramatically overrated what kind of impact a Rondo/Poor Man's Jason Kidd/Fat Lever could have by themselves.

  I guess this just balances out your dramatically underrating the kind of impact Rondo had on the 2012 team, or the impact he would have had on the 2013 team that wasn't going to miss Rondo at all in the playoffs.

Actually... I've been comparing Rondo to Fat Lever for several years now.  It's a pretty great comparison.  There was a thread about it on here last week, actually.  I saw threads about it as far back as 2009. 

Rondo = Fat Lever.

Fat would have struggled with this crop of garbage too... but stick an 8-time all-star like Alex English next to him and another solid player like Michael Adams.. you got yourself a 44 win playoff also-ran.

Stick a proper superstar on this team and you might have a contender.

It's all good.  Let's land a Top 5 pick and go from there.

  You're not going to make this team into a contender with a "proper superstar". Take the size (Big Z/AV) away from LeBron and give him crappier 3 point shooters and you end up with a "Fat Lever team". It's true that LeBron managed a finals appearance once, it's also true that even when paired with Wade they couldn't beat a depleted Celts team without Bosh.

[BballTim]

They were good. Not better than Rondo, but still quite good. Go back and watch the 2012 playoffs if you get a chance. The fact that Rondo's injured and doesn't have any above average teammates at the moment doesn't change the past.

The fact that when he got in trouble, Rondo had the ultimate safety net of just throwing the ball to Garnett or Pierce knowing it will result in an average shot more often than not is what makes all the difference.

And until 2013, both Pierce and Garnett were absolutely the better players.

  They really weren't. Rondo would generally either hit KG with a great pass when he was open or draw KG's defender away from him before giving him the ball. Rondo throwing the ball to KG when he was "in trouble" and having KG create his own offense has been quite the rarity for at least a few years.

[chambers]

I knew we'd stink regardless. With Rondo returning I said 27 wins. Without him I said maybe 20 wins.
Danny set the roster up to fail, our scoring is just pathetic. Rondos getting assists, but he isn't finishing around the rim (like 43% compared to 56% last season?) and it's got to do with his knee and strength, but it's also got to do with defenses being able to collapse on him when he drives because we don't have any shooting threats. Teams don't care if Kris Humphries at Wallace get an open 15 footer. Only guys they have to worry about are green and bass and maybe Avery if he's hit his first few.

We are slightly better than I thought but Danny has done a good job of making a team that appears okay on TV, but can't actually put the ball in the hole or stop the ball going in the hole on the other end-particularly around the rim.

I thought with Rondo we may be too good for a top 5 pick if we got lucky and won more of the 50/50 games than we deserved too and that still may be the case. I'm worried about the last 10 games moving up from 4th pick to 7th or 8th but thankfully Stephens is sticking to his guns and letting us continue to shoot jumpshots will ultimately fails...unless you're the 2008 boston celtics.
Without Rondo I thought a top 3 or 4 pick was pretty safe odds wise and that was probably the case.
Good thing is that Orlando are going to get much better and so will Sacto.

It's between the
Celtics
Lakers(may surprise and get better)
Bucks
Philly
For the top pick.

We are in a good position for Embid or Parker.
Danny picks Parker.

[LarBrd33]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

  Kind of like Earhardt Jr. with a crappy car. With people telling everyone who will listen that the fact that he can't win Daytona with that crappy car means he isn't a good driver.

I've seen Earhardt Jr with a crappy car... He still finished 2nd one year.  It's called LeBron James on the Cavs.  50-66 wins + a Finals appearance.

This is more like Fat Lever running the 37 win 1987 Nuggets had Fat Lever not had an Alex English (28.9ppg) to pass the ball to.

I'm not knocking it... I'm just saying I dramatically overrated what kind of impact a Rondo/Poor Man's Jason Kidd/Fat Lever could have by themselves.

  I guess this just balances out your dramatically underrating the kind of impact Rondo had on the 2012 team, or the impact he would have had on the 2013 team that wasn't going to miss Rondo at all in the playoffs.

Actually... I've been comparing Rondo to Fat Lever for several years now.  It's a pretty great comparison.  There was a thread about it on here last week, actually.  I saw threads about it as far back as 2009. 

Rondo = Fat Lever.

Fat would have struggled with this crop of garbage too... but stick an 8-time all-star like Alex English next to him and another solid player like Michael Adams.. you got yourself a 44 win playoff also-ran.

Stick a proper superstar on this team and you might have a contender.

It's all good.  Let's land a Top 5 pick and go from there.

  You're not going to make this team into a contender with a "proper superstar". Take the size (Big Z/AV) away from LeBron and give him crappier 3 point shooters and you end up with a "Fat Lever team". It's true that LeBron managed a finals appearance once, it's also true that even when paired with Wade they couldn't beat a depleted Celts team without Bosh.

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right? 

[playdream]

Rondo is so overrated by some people
yes he is a beast in the playoffs when he gives it all out
But in regular season he is average at-best, his states looks good but he pounding the ball kills the offense flow and his defense is horrible
The truth is he haven't prove anything in the regular season except a bad team record

[BballTim]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

[Eddie20]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

  Kind of like Earhardt Jr. with a crappy car. With people telling everyone who will listen that the fact that he can't win Daytona with that crappy car means he isn't a good driver.

I've seen Earhardt Jr with a crappy car... He still finished 2nd one year.  It's called LeBron James on the Cavs.  50-66 wins + a Finals appearance.

This is more like Fat Lever running the 37 win 1987 Nuggets had Fat Lever not had an Alex English (28.9ppg) to pass the ball to.

I'm not knocking it... I'm just saying I dramatically overrated what kind of impact a Rondo/Poor Man's Jason Kidd/Fat Lever could have by themselves.

  I guess this just balances out your dramatically underrating the kind of impact Rondo had on the 2012 team, or the impact he would have had on the 2013 team that wasn't going to miss Rondo at all in the playoffs.

Actually... I've been comparing Rondo to Fat Lever for several years now.  It's a pretty great comparison.  There was a thread about it on here last week, actually.  I saw threads about it as far back as 2009. 

Rondo = Fat Lever.

Fat would have struggled with this crop of garbage too... but stick an 8-time all-star like Alex English next to him and another solid player like Michael Adams.. you got yourself a 44 win playoff also-ran.

Stick a proper superstar on this team and you might have a contender.

It's all good.  Let's land a Top 5 pick and go from there.

  You're not going to make this team into a contender with a "proper superstar". Take the size (Big Z/AV) away from LeBron and give him crappier 3 point shooters and you end up with a "Fat Lever team". It's true that LeBron managed a finals appearance once, it's also true that even when paired with Wade they couldn't beat a depleted Celts team without Bosh.

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

That all he has, man. He's been out of material for a long time now. He's really living in the past.

[Tr1boy]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

  Kind of like Earhardt Jr. with a crappy car. With people telling everyone who will listen that the fact that he can't win Daytona with that crappy car means he isn't a good driver.

I've seen Earhardt Jr with a crappy car... He still finished 2nd one year.  It's called LeBron James on the Cavs.  50-66 wins + a Finals appearance.

This is more like Fat Lever running the 37 win 1987 Nuggets had Fat Lever not had an Alex English (28.9ppg) to pass the ball to.

I'm not knocking it... I'm just saying I dramatically overrated what kind of impact a Rondo/Poor Man's Jason Kidd/Fat Lever could have by themselves.

  I guess this just balances out your dramatically underrating the kind of impact Rondo had on the 2012 team, or the impact he would have had on the 2013 team that wasn't going to miss Rondo at all in the playoffs.

Actually... I've been comparing Rondo to Fat Lever for several years now.  It's a pretty great comparison.  There was a thread about it on here last week, actually.  I saw threads about it as far back as 2009. 

Rondo = Fat Lever.

Fat would have struggled with this crop of garbage too... but stick an 8-time all-star like Alex English next to him and another solid player like Michael Adams.. you got yourself a 44 win playoff also-ran.

Stick a proper superstar on this team and you might have a contender.

It's all good.  Let's land a Top 5 pick and go from there.

  You're not going to make this team into a contender with a "proper superstar". Take the size (Big Z/AV) away from LeBron and give him crappier 3 point shooters and you end up with a "Fat Lever team". It's true that LeBron managed a finals appearance once, it's also true that even when paired with Wade they couldn't beat a depleted Celts team without Bosh.

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

+1.

But i'am willing to give the little guy one more chance, which is next season. He should be back to optimal health, danny is going to draft a big piece and maybe a suprising 2nd first to help the team out. A few FA signings here and there.

Still not amazing and we might only make 7th or 8th. Just worse case we sb much better than now. And if we are not, likely Rondo will get the finger point. He is going to also play for a new contract, so you got to figure he will play better.

[chambers]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

Hard to see us doing much better vs New York with Rondo because of KG's injury and Pierce's horrible form (injury was it?).
He might have gotten us a win but we were just beaten up that year.
Of course, with a healthy Rondo, KG and Pierce wouldn't have had the workload that ultimately broke both of them before the playoffs.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Fact is that even with Rondo blazing the lights out, needling passes to the two best 15 foot jump shooters in the NBA from 10-15 feet (Bass+KG), and Rondo actually hitting some 3 pointers we still couldn't beat the Heat with Wade on a cortizone leg and Bosh missing most of the series.

I just hope you don't expect Rondo to play like the 2012 ECF every playoff series for the rest of his career because you're going to be disappointed Tim. What we've seen so far-particularly his shooting- has been promising, but it's just not fair to expect him to be that 'hot' every 7 games series. He's just not consistent enough from 15 feet and beyond. Lets just hope 9 months of shooting jumpshots on one leg has changed that for the better.
I do think though if the guy got a solid 15 footer and shot 40%+ from three he'd be a top 5 player in the NBA. And hit 75%+ from the line.

[kozlodoev]

They were good. Not better than Rondo, but still quite good. Go back and watch the 2012 playoffs if you get a chance. The fact that Rondo's injured and doesn't have any above average teammates at the moment doesn't change the past.

The fact that when he got in trouble, Rondo had the ultimate safety net of just throwing the ball to Garnett or Pierce knowing it will result in an average shot more often than not is what makes all the difference.

And until 2013, both Pierce and Garnett were absolutely the better players.

  They really weren't. Rondo would generally either hit KG with a great pass when he was open or draw KG's defender away from him before giving him the ball. Rondo throwing the ball to KG when he was "in trouble" and having KG create his own offense has been quite the rarity for at least a few years.

Garnett took roughly 40% of his shots in the 3 to 16 feet zone in 2012, and roughly half of these were unassisted. In fact, for whatever it's worth, he did a lot more heavy lifting this way in 2012 than in any of the two years prior.

[mmmmm]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

Hard to see us doing much better vs New York with Rondo because of KG's injury and Pierce's horrible form (injury was it?).

Uh?   KG was one of our only players (along with Green, Terry and Bass) who played like a beast in last year's playoff series against NY.

What are you talking about?

All of our other players shot like crap and that's why we lost, but KG was fantastic.  He averaged 12.7 pts & a ridiculous 13.7 rebounds while shooting a healthy .500 eFG.   My god, KG grabbed an other-worldly 37.9% of his defensive rebound chances!!!!!  He looked like he was 28 again.

The four guys I mentioned shot very well but EVERYONE else on the team totally struggled not only with miserable shooting but also with turnovers.    NY was also miserable offensively in that series, but the Celtics pretty much gave them the series by being inept on offense.   In particular, we were terrible at getting open looks out of our half court offense.

I think it is totally easy to see that a healthy Rondo would have made a huge difference in that series and folks waiving that notion off look pretty disingenuous.

[chambers]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

Hard to see us doing much better vs New York with Rondo because of KG's injury and Pierce's horrible form (injury was it?).

Uh?   KG was one of our only players (along with Green, Terry and Bass) who played like a beast in last year's playoff series against NY.

What are you talking about?

All of our other players shot like crap and that's why we lost, but KG was fantastic.  He averaged 12.7 pts & a ridiculous 13.7 rebounds while shooting a healthy .500 eFG.   My god, KG grabbed an other-worldly 37.9% of his defensive rebound chances!!!!!  He looked like he was 28 again.

The four guys I mentioned shot very well but EVERYONE else on the team totally struggled not only with miserable shooting but also with turnovers.    NY was also miserable offensively in that series, but the Celtics pretty much gave them the series by being inept on offense.   In particular, we were terrible at getting open looks out of our half court offense.

I think it is totally easy to see that a healthy Rondo would have made a huge difference in that series and folks waiving that notion off look pretty disingenuous.

He had multiple injuries. His bone spurs were so bad that he missed the last 10 or so games of the regular season and then in game 1 or 2 he hurt his hip- do you remember him wincing and often struggling to go for rebounds? (and yes he still killed it on the glass). After the series Doc said that KG was playing in serious pain with those bone spurs. KG even contemplated surgery in the background of his potential retirement buzz.

Too hard to say what Rondo could've done because Pierce and KG carried so much of the load it really beat their old legs up. Rondo obviously makes us much better but I doubt we beat them- they were on a serious hot streak shooting. If we are using injury to Rondo as a 'what if', well what if they didn't have
$22 million of their cap wound up in Amare Stoudemire? If he wasn't injured they could have killed us even more. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Hard to see Pierce stopping Carmelo as the league's leading scorer too.

[mmmmm]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

Hard to see us doing much better vs New York with Rondo because of KG's injury and Pierce's horrible form (injury was it?).

Uh?   KG was one of our only players (along with Green, Terry and Bass) who played like a beast in last year's playoff series against NY.

What are you talking about?

All of our other players shot like crap and that's why we lost, but KG was fantastic.  He averaged 12.7 pts & a ridiculous 13.7 rebounds while shooting a healthy .500 eFG.   My god, KG grabbed an other-worldly 37.9% of his defensive rebound chances!!!!!  He looked like he was 28 again.

The four guys I mentioned shot very well but EVERYONE else on the team totally struggled not only with miserable shooting but also with turnovers.    NY was also miserable offensively in that series, but the Celtics pretty much gave them the series by being inept on offense.   In particular, we were terrible at getting open looks out of our half court offense.

I think it is totally easy to see that a healthy Rondo would have made a huge difference in that series and folks waiving that notion off look pretty disingenuous.

Too hard to say what Rondo could've done because Pierce and KG carried so much of the load it really beat their old legs up. Rondo obviously makes us much better but I doubt we beat them- they were on a serious hot streak shooting. If we are using injury to Rondo as a 'what if', well what if they didn't have
$22 million of their cap wound up in Amare Stoudemire? If he wasn't injured they could have killed us even more. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Hard to see Pierce stopping Carmelo as the league's leading scorer too.

Except that NYK didn't beat us with 'hot shooting'.  They sucked offensively.  Just not as suck as the Celtics did.

All you are doing after that is tacking on additional 'what ifs'.  Each one is a separate argument that has nothing to do with the other.

I have no problem conceding that a healthy Amare (or the absence of his cap hit) probably would have made a significant impact. 

You should have no problem conceding that a healthy Rondo probably would have had a significant impact.  It's not hard.  It doesn't hurt.

[CoachBo]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

  Kind of like Earhardt Jr. with a crappy car. With people telling everyone who will listen that the fact that he can't win Daytona with that crappy car means he isn't a good driver.

I've seen Earhardt Jr with a crappy car... He still finished 2nd one year.  It's called LeBron James on the Cavs.  50-66 wins + a Finals appearance.

This is more like Fat Lever running the 37 win 1987 Nuggets had Fat Lever not had an Alex English (28.9ppg) to pass the ball to.

I'm not knocking it... I'm just saying I dramatically overrated what kind of impact a Rondo/Poor Man's Jason Kidd/Fat Lever could have by themselves.

  I guess this just balances out your dramatically underrating the kind of impact Rondo had on the 2012 team, or the impact he would have had on the 2013 team that wasn't going to miss Rondo at all in the playoffs.

Actually... I've been comparing Rondo to Fat Lever for several years now.  It's a pretty great comparison.  There was a thread about it on here last week, actually.  I saw threads about it as far back as 2009. 

Rondo = Fat Lever.

Fat would have struggled with this crop of garbage too... but stick an 8-time all-star like Alex English next to him and another solid player like Michael Adams.. you got yourself a 44 win playoff also-ran.

Stick a proper superstar on this team and you might have a contender.

It's all good.  Let's land a Top 5 pick and go from there.

  You're not going to make this team into a contender with a "proper superstar". Take the size (Big Z/AV) away from LeBron and give him crappier 3 point shooters and you end up with a "Fat Lever team". It's true that LeBron managed a finals appearance once, it's also true that even when paired with Wade they couldn't beat a depleted Celts team without Bosh.

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

TP for fighting the good fight.

Fan is indeed short for "fanatic," isn't it?

[chambers]

Man... everything with you just goes back to 2012.  It's hilarious.  Heat took care of us when they needed to.  Our path to the ECF was cake.  WHen in doubt, you just go back to Rondo's 2012 playoff performance.  Our success had more to do with KG anyways... if you want to call beating the Horford-less Hawks and 8th seed 76ers "success".

Also, you create hypothetical upsets.  You're completely convinced that the 2013 Celtics were a Rondo away from upsetting the Knicks.  The Knicks won 50+ last season... we were on pace to miss the playoffs with a healthy Rondo.  There's absolutely no basis for idea the we would have upset the Knicks other than fantasyland homerism. 

We only ever went as far as KG and Paul took us.  Now that we are gone... we are the 4th worst team in the league.  2-11  with Rondo in charge.  It's bleak.  But it's ok cuz Rondo helped us take the 8th seed 76ers to 7 games in 2012, right?

  2012 was the last time Rondo was in the playoffs. And yes, I'm fairly convinced the Celts would have beat the Knicks with Rondo. If you watched the games his play was the main thing they were missing. Also, the fact that they'd struggle and how they'd struggle was very predictable. If you want to look for hypotheticals, go with the claim that KG and PP were carrying the team when Rondo was healthy and playing well, only not when he wasn't.

Hard to see us doing much better vs New York with Rondo because of KG's injury and Pierce's horrible form (injury was it?).

Uh?   KG was one of our only players (along with Green, Terry and Bass) who played like a beast in last year's playoff series against NY.

What are you talking about?

All of our other players shot like crap and that's why we lost, but KG was fantastic.  He averaged 12.7 pts & a ridiculous 13.7 rebounds while shooting a healthy .500 eFG.   My god, KG grabbed an other-worldly 37.9% of his defensive rebound chances!!!!!  He looked like he was 28 again.

The four guys I mentioned shot very well but EVERYONE else on the team totally struggled not only with miserable shooting but also with turnovers.    NY was also miserable offensively in that series, but the Celtics pretty much gave them the series by being inept on offense.   In particular, we were terrible at getting open looks out of our half court offense.

I think it is totally easy to see that a healthy Rondo would have made a huge difference in that series and folks waiving that notion off look pretty disingenuous.

Too hard to say what Rondo could've done because Pierce and KG carried so much of the load it really beat their old legs up. Rondo obviously makes us much better but I doubt we beat them- they were on a serious hot streak shooting. If we are using injury to Rondo as a 'what if', well what if they didn't have
$22 million of their cap wound up in Amare Stoudemire? If he wasn't injured they could have killed us even more. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.
Hard to see Pierce stopping Carmelo as the league's leading scorer too.

Except that NYK didn't beat us with 'hot shooting'.  They sucked offensively.  Just not as suck as the Celtics did.

All you are doing after that is tacking on additional 'what ifs'.  Each one is a separate argument that has nothing to do with the other.

I have no problem conceding that a healthy Amare (or the absence of his cap hit) probably would have made a significant impact. 

You should have no problem conceding that a healthy Rondo probably would have had a significant impact.  It's not hard.  It doesn't hurt.

I said he may have gotten us an extra win but other circumstances like KG's feet and Pierce's lack of form played a huge part too.
There are too many 'what if's'. If Rondo is healthy but KG+Pierce are the same do we win another game or two? I don't know. Probably.
If all three are healthy around 90% then we probably do win at least one or two more games.

You agree that KG was hurting now right?
I noticed you skipped that part of the discussion.
http://nba.si.com/2013/03/25/kevin-garnett-ankle-injury-update-danny-ainge-doc-rivers/