Celtics actually not 'good enough' with Rondo and Green

[mmmmm]

I think the passive approach the team has taken with injuries has created a real tank effect with this team that has caused rotation fluctuation, unfamiliarity between players, changes to roles and generally has kept this team from winning games.

Not a lot of games, just some. If this team was healthy for the year(meaning Rondo having come back in December, Bradley not getting injured, Sully not hurting his hand/wrist, etc) and if the team didn't have the thought process of "if you are hurt even some you sit", then I think better chemistry would have happened with more defined roles and more wins happening as a result.

Yep.  To the OP's opening statement, it should be pointed out that the 'core four' of Sully, Rondo, Bradley & Green have played together a grand total of just 85 minutes so far this season.

Not sure how much we can have learned from that.

Also, this offense that Stevens is playing is just awful and will never succeed at this level of play. He needs to do something to get the ball into the hands of the players that will optimize his chances of scoring. This offense and its desire to put the ball in everyone's hands and generate points through creation from anywhere was designed to be a losing offense in the NBA. I wonder if Stevens installed this offense this year on purpose to lose more games and the full playbook will be introduced next year.

Ditto that.   I love Stevens.  I hate the offensive system we have been using most of this season.

[Mr October]

The lineup is not any worse vs hawks, suns, wizards

No, it really is not. All those teams have significantly more talent than the Celtics have.

Rondo hasn't gotten this team to win because the team stinks. Its being managed from the top to lose and the coach has a farce of an offensive system installed that takes away from Rondo's total effectiveness as a player.

I just do not understand those that are so gung ho to get young, unproven, college players on this team next year and want Rondo gone. Rondo is the exact type player you want running an offense with young players. He will demand they know their roles and he will make them better in every way offensively.

Let Rondo get back to 100% and play a whole preseason and season in a better offensive system and people will see that Rondo is the guy you want around all those unproven rookie and sophomore players that you have been drooling over playing in the NCAA and Europe this year.

They dont have significantly more talent. Look at their rosters

Do you really believe that he hasn't looked at the rosters before making that comment?

Comments like this do nothing to further public discourse, and come off as astoundingly arrogant.

I notice this is a trend with you.

None of the rosters below are considered significantly better than ours

Phx - dragic, green, frye, plumlee, tucker

Was- wall, beal, gortat, nene

Hawks - millsap, teague, williams

If this was the start of the year nobody would think they would be in playoff contention outside of Washington

I will take the above teams talent over the celtics. They have more starting quality players, and better balance with talent at each position.

The celtics start Gerald Wallace as a shooting guard. And they have no centers.

Edit - the hawk's lack of a center is finally catching up with them as well.

[bobbyv]

The lineup is not any worse vs hawks, suns, wizards

No, it really is not. All those teams have significantly more talent than the Celtics have.

Rondo hasn't gotten this team to win because the team stinks. Its being managed from the top to lose and the coach has a farce of an offensive system installed that takes away from Rondo's total effectiveness as a player.

I just do not understand those that are so gung ho to get young, unproven, college players on this team next year and want Rondo gone. Rondo is the exact type player you want running an offense with young players. He will demand they know their roles and he will make them better in every way offensively.

Let Rondo get back to 100% and play a whole preseason and season in a better offensive system and people will see that Rondo is the guy you want around all those unproven rookie and sophomore players that you have been drooling over playing in the NCAA and Europe this year.

They dont have significantly more talent. Look at their rosters

Do you really believe that he hasn't looked at the rosters before making that comment?

Comments like this do nothing to further public discourse, and come off as astoundingly arrogant.

I notice this is a trend with you.

None of the rosters below are considered significantly better than ours

Phx - dragic, green, frye, plumlee, tucker

Was- wall, beal, gortat, nene

Hawks - millsap, teague, williams

If this was the start of the year nobody would think they would be in playoff contention outside of Washington

I will take the above teams talent over the celtics. They have more starting quality players, and better balance with talent at each position.

The celtics start Gerald Wallace as a shooting guard. And they have no centers.

Edit - the hawk's lack of a center is finally catching up with them as well.

Exactly. While PHX is probably playing better than they should roster wise, each of those teams are a lot better than ours. As far as I'm concerned, our second best player Sully isn't playing, and Jeff Green has proven he's not a first option (may not be second either). At least with PHX, Dragic has players he can get in position to score like Frye. Same with Wall and Teague. Rondo last night had players that repeatedly bricked his attempts (other than Olynyk).

[Vox_Populi]

The celtics start Gerald Wallace as a shooting guard. And they have no centers.

Nothing else needs to be said.

[PhoSita]

Also, this offense that Stevens is playing is just awful and will never succeed at this level of play. He needs to do something to get the ball into the hands of the players that will optimize his chances of scoring. This offense and its desire to put the ball in everyone's hands and generate points through creation from anywhere was designed to be a losing offense in the NBA. I wonder if Stevens installed this offense this year on purpose to lose more games and the full playbook will be introduced next year.

Ditto that.   I love Stevens.  I hate the offensive system we have been using most of this season.

Meh, I think this is the wrong attitude to have.


Stevens is trying to put in place an offensive system that will serve this team in the long run.  It doesn't fit the personnel we have right now, but the personnel we have right now stinks.  You could create the perfect offense for this team and it would still stink, and half of these guys will be gone in a year or two, so why bother? 

It doesn't make sense to me to focus on "getting the ball into the hands of your best scorers" when those guys are Jared Sullinger, Jeff Green, and whichever of the high-usage gunners is in the game (Crawford / Bayless / Bradley).  It's not like we're talking about high level weapons here.

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.  Furthermore, the teams that win at the highest level in this league generally play at a slow pace and hunt out high percentage looks in the half-court.  Again, the personnel currently on the roster isn't very good at that.  But I trust Ainge to find the kind of pieces that can thrive under Stevens' tutelage.



I agree, however, that the policy of resting players at every opportunity has definitely interrupted the team's flow and probably prevented the team from winning as many games as possible.  Again, however, seeing as this season is more or less like one long pre-season, that doesn't concern me too much. 

I'm interested in seeing certain pairings get maximum minutes together -- Olynyk and Sullinger, Rondo and either of the two young big men -- but I'm of the opinion that there isn't a four man group here that is likely to be around long-term, so the lack of extended playing time together for them doesn't worry me.

I do wish so many minutes weren't being given to guys with no future here, especially now that the trade deadline has passed.  Bass and Wallace should get no more than 15 minutes a game, if you ask me (Wallace obviously has a 'future' here, but hopefully he'll be relegated to street clothes as soon as next year).

[LarBrd33]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

[PhoSita]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Rondo, unsurprisingly, has been more than a step slow since he came back, and his timing and touch aren't there yet, especially as far as finishing inside.  I think he'll be a lot closer to what he was before by next season.  In the meantime, though, he can't score even as well as he could before his injury, and his playmaking ability, while still superlative, is largely superfluous without any highly efficient targets to pass to.

I think Danny Ainge's comments, about 20 out of the 30 teams in the league not being keen on surrendering assets for Rondo because they already have decent point guards, spoke volumes.  Rondo is a nice player.  He can do a lot for you, especially in big games, assuming he's healthy.  But he is a thoroughly complementary player, and the discrepancy between him and a less well-rounded but cheaper, younger guard with more pure scoring skills is not great enough to make it worth giving up a lot of value for him.


Luckily for us in the short term, though, you're right -- Rondo isn't going to move the needle, at least not enough to keep this team from finishing in the bottom 5.

[KGs Knee]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

We have a winner!!!


For sarcastic post of the century.

[kozlodoev]

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.

This is true, but I don't really see them really doing any of this with regularity.

[PhoSita]

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.

This is true, but I don't really see them really doing any of this with regularity.

Yeah, well, see the bit about how our personnel stinks and they haven't really gotten the chance to develop any chemistry or rhythm because of time out with injuries and a roster that is generally discombobulated (two many 2s and 4s).

In any case, my understanding is that Stevens' reputation has always been as a defensive coach first and foremost.  That, and developing discipline and cohesion via a focus on process over results, are where Stevens' strengths lie.  I think we'll need patience for the offense to improve as Stevens grows along with the gradual growth of the roster.

[BleedGreen1989]

TP to Pho.

He's saved me a lot of keystrokes in this thread.

Can I just type "what he said"?

[kozlodoev]

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.

This is true, but I don't really see them really doing any of this with regularity.

Yeah, well, see the bit about how our personnel stinks and they haven't really gotten the chance to develop any chemistry or rhythm because of time out with injuries and a roster that is generally discombobulated (two many 2s and 4s).

In any case, my understanding is that Stevens' reputation has always been as a defensive coach first and foremost.  That, and developing discipline and cohesion via a focus on process over results, are where Stevens' strengths lie.  I think we'll need patience for the offense to improve as Stevens grows along with the gradual growth of the roster.

I don't buy this excuse. As in the very beginning, my complaint with the offense is not that the execution sucks, it's that the team generally looks like they have no idea what they're executing. The only evident result of the purported "ball movement" and "spacing" is guys passing good shots to take bad shots. That's not a well-coached team, and 50 games should be more than enough to show at least some improvement.

Also, if Stevens is really billed as a defensive coach, then things are worse than I thought. Forgive me if I'm not impressed with a defensive strategy that is chiefly limited to man-to-man with a very occasional double-team, and which fails to contain basic pick-and-roll on most nights. I'm a little tired of watching an opposition layup galore every time the Celtics are on TV.

[More Banners]

Also, this offense that Stevens is playing is just awful and will never succeed at this level of play. He needs to do something to get the ball into the hands of the players that will optimize his chances of scoring. This offense and its desire to put the ball in everyone's hands and generate points through creation from anywhere was designed to be a losing offense in the NBA. I wonder if Stevens installed this offense this year on purpose to lose more games and the full playbook will be introduced next year.

Ditto that.   I love Stevens.  I hate the offensive system we have been using most of this season.

Meh, I think this is the wrong attitude to have.


Stevens is trying to put in place an offensive system that will serve this team in the long run.  It doesn't fit the personnel we have right now, but the personnel we have right now stinks.  You could create the perfect offense for this team and it would still stink, and half of these guys will be gone in a year or two, so why bother? 

It doesn't make sense to me to focus on "getting the ball into the hands of your best scorers" when those guys are Jared Sullinger, Jeff Green, and whichever of the high-usage gunners is in the game (Crawford / Bayless / Bradley).  It's not like we're talking about high level weapons here.

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.  Furthermore, the teams that win at the highest level in this league generally play at a slow pace and hunt out high percentage looks in the half-court.  Again, the personnel currently on the roster isn't very good at that.  But I trust Ainge to find the kind of pieces that can thrive under Stevens' tutelage.



I agree, however, that the policy of resting players at every opportunity has definitely interrupted the team's flow and probably prevented the team from winning as many games as possible.  Again, however, seeing as this season is more or less like one long pre-season, that doesn't concern me too much. 

I'm interested in seeing certain pairings get maximum minutes together -- Olynyk and Sullinger, Rondo and either of the two young big men -- but I'm of the opinion that there isn't a four man group here that is likely to be around long-term, so the lack of extended playing time together for them doesn't worry me.

I do wish so many minutes weren't being given to guys with no future here, especially now that the trade deadline has passed.  Bass and Wallace should get no more than 15 minutes a game, if you ask me (Wallace obviously has a 'future' here, but hopefully he'll be relegated to street clothes as soon as next year).

I'll go along with this.  When we had the triumvirate of Allen, Pierce, and Garnett, ball movement and spacing looked quite elegant.

And I have no desire to watch Bass or Wallace play.

[CoachBo]

I am a pro tanker and I never thought this team was good enough to be a playoff team even with Rondo.

I have to admit I'm one of the pro-tankers who thought Rondo would convert this team from 26 win lotto squad to 36 win playoff squad.  It's pretty clear that I've been overrating Rondo for years.   

So far we are 2-11 in games he's played... with our only two wins coming against fellow bottomfeeders Orlando and Philly. 

Had I not been overrating Rondo's potential impact, I probably wouldn't have been so keen on trading him.  It appears he doesn't really move the needle.  Great passer, but he needs someone to pass to.  Glad we are hanging onto him. In a few years we could luck into a superstar and Rondo would be a nice role player to have here.  He'll also be a nice bridge between the KG/Pierce 3.5 year micro-dynasty and the Andrew WIggins 15 year true-dynasty.

Kind of like Earhardt Jr. without a car, eh?

Once we acquire actual stars to get the ball to, he'll be just fine in a Tiny Archibald sort of way.

I hope you don't lose any sleep over this.

[PhoSita]

Ball movement, spreading the floor, and finding the open man are important principles.

This is true, but I don't really see them really doing any of this with regularity.

Yeah, well, see the bit about how our personnel stinks and they haven't really gotten the chance to develop any chemistry or rhythm because of time out with injuries and a roster that is generally discombobulated (two many 2s and 4s).

In any case, my understanding is that Stevens' reputation has always been as a defensive coach first and foremost.  That, and developing discipline and cohesion via a focus on process over results, are where Stevens' strengths lie.  I think we'll need patience for the offense to improve as Stevens grows along with the gradual growth of the roster.

I don't buy this excuse. As in the very beginning, my complaint with the offense is not that the execution sucks, it's that the team generally looks like they have no idea what they're executing. The only evident result of the purported "ball movement" and "spacing" is guys passing good shots to take bad shots. That's not a well-coached team, and 50 games should be more than enough to show at least some improvement.

Also, if Stevens is really billed as a defensive coach, then things are worse than I thought. Forgive me if I'm not impressed with a defensive strategy that is chiefly limited to man-to-man with a very occasional double-team, and which fails to contain basic pick-and-roll on most nights. I'm a little tired of watching an opposition layup galore every time the Celtics are on TV.

I guess I'm not sure what you expected given what Stevens has to work with.