Could Ainge go against conventional wisdom

[LooseCannon]

Isn't thus basically what the Denver nuggets have been trying to do since they moved melo?

But they've been handing out bad deals to players like Wilson Chandler and Al Harrington and had an inferior coach in George Karl.

[hpantazo]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber or Sheed for example

[Boris Badenov]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber.

It's a fine line though. Webber was, at his peak, really close to that level. If 2004 Webber were in the league right now, I think he'd be the 3rd best player in the league. Others might have different opinions but even if you disagree, how many players would clearly be better?

[hpantazo]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber.

It's a fine line though. Webber was, at his peak, really close to that level. If 2004 Webber were in the league right now, I think he'd be the 3rd best player in the league. Others might have different opinions but even if you disagree, how many players would clearly be better?

It is a fine line, but there are certain guys that are worth building around even if they are not a once in a generation superstar. That is the main point. The pistons had sheed and billups. I would think Aldridge and Rondo are comparable if you add the right cast around them. Kevin Love would fit as well.

[RJ87]

Isn't thus basically what the Denver nuggets have been trying to do since they moved melo?

They came pretty close last season, but then Gallo tore his ACL and we never got to see how far they may have gone otherwise. It's ashame in the offseason they fired Karl, let Ujiri go to Toronto, and lost Iggy to GS - they were one of the West's best teams last season. Seems like a botched opportunity.

[footey]

Chris Webber was averaging 24.5ppg,, 10.1rpg, 4.8apg, 1.7spg, and 1.4bpg in ‘02, and was 1st or 2nd team All-NBA for 3 straight years, if that’s not considered a superstar I don’t know what it is.

Plus he had 2 other All-Stars on the team in Vlade Divac and Peja Stojakovic.

Detroit had the best defensive player in the last 15 years, and also had 4 others guys who would go on to become All-Stars (Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Mehmet Okur).

Both teams had guys that were top 3 players at their positions (Webber, Ben Wallace), and probably a couple of more that were considered top 3-5 at one point or another  (Billups, Divac, Peja, etc.).

So ya, if Ainge could just put together a team of 4-5 guys that will go to be All-Stars, built around 1 lesser superstar, then I'm all for it, but let's not act like it's that easy. Conley, Affalo, Green, Milsap, and Asik sure aren't going to get it done.

Not to mention Vlade, maybe the best all time passing center after Bill Walton.

[moiso]

Chris Webber was a certified superstar on those teams.  25/10/5...those are MVP numbers...Bibby wasn't too shabby either.  The Piston are a better example but even them, Billups was a All-Star and at the top of his game during that period too...

And Rasheed Wallace was at the same talent level as the best big men of the time, he just wasn't a guy who demanded the shots.

Nor a guy who rebounded.

[Moranis]

Chris Webber was averaging 24.5ppg,, 10.1rpg, 4.8apg, 1.7spg, and 1.4bpg in ‘02, and was 1st or 2nd team All-NBA for 3 straight years, if that’s not considered a superstar I don’t know what it is.

Plus he had 2 other All-Stars on the team in Vlade Divac and Peja Stojakovic.

Detroit had the best defensive player in the last 15 years, and also had 4 others guys who would go on to become All-Stars (Rasheed Wallace, Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, Mehmet Okur).

Both teams had guys that were top 3 players at their positions (Webber, Ben Wallace), and probably a couple of more that were considered top 3-5 at one point or another  (Billups, Divac, Peja, etc.).

So ya, if Ainge could just put together a team of 4-5 guys that will go to be All-Stars, built around 1 lesser superstar, then I'm all for it, but let's not act like it's that easy. Conley, Affalo, Green, Milsap, and Asik sure aren't going to get it done.

Agree completely. Those SAC teams were stacked.

Just to follow up I thought I'd try to assemble a team from today's players that matches that SAC team at its peak, in terms of overall talent.

At PG, I actually do think Conley is a decent match. Bibby was perhaps better offensively but he was a weak defender.

At SG, I would say that Afflalo is not bad. Christie was an elite "3 and D" guy before the term existed. I'd say that Afflalo is better offensively but Christie was a more disruptive player on D - he was spectacular there for a couple of years (and made 4 straight All-Defense teams).

In the frontcourt is where the problems come. At his peak Peja scored 24ppg and was the best outside shooter in the league, bar none, and finished 4th in MVP voting. I can't find a comparable player now. I'd say that KD, Lebron and George are better now than Peja, but that Peja is not too far from Carmelo in terms of impact (though they are very different players). Peja's clearly better than any SF other than those guys right now. I'll stick with Carmelo (since the modern team will be giving something up at PF, see below).

Webber was phenomenal. Webber finished in the top 10 for MVP voting 5 straight times and made 5 straight All-NBA teams. His peak averages were around 23/10/4/1.5/1.5. I can't think of another comp so I'll use Love - style aside the only others on Web's level today would probably be Aldridge and Nowitzki, and Davis if he's a PF.

At C things are tough because Vlade was so unique - maybe the best passing center ever as well as a 12/10 guy pretty consistently. He was on the downswing to be sure. I'll pick Bogut as a comp, even though they're not exact comps, but I think they might rank similarly.

The frontcourt overall is difficult to match but I think Carmelo/Love/Bogut is roughly the equal of Webber/Peja/Vlade at their peak.

So, this would mean that we could put together an analogue of the SAC team like this:

Conley (or Rondo if we keep him)
Afflalo
Carmelo
Love
Bogut

I think this highlights the talent needed pretty well. This team would contend, but I don't see them as prohibitive favorites.

The big point is, like others have said...you're not getting it done with some of the lesser players being discussed as possible targets. We need at least one MVP-caliber guy and another All-Star or two, along with 2-3 other guys who are either borderline All-Stars or elite defenders...and remember that SAC team didn't even win, they just contended.

Decent job there, though I do think if Peja doesn't get hurt Sacto beats the Lakers and cruises by the Nets in 01/02.  As we know from recent first hand history, an injury to a key player can destroy all title hopes.

[hpantazo]

I like how Ainge didn't miss the opportunity to take a shot at the Lakers and the NBA officiating though. Nice job Danny!

[ManUp]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber or Sheed for example

Exactly.

When you can't get a Lebron/Durant you get the next best thing (Melo/George) and do what you can. I think the Pacers are a very similar type of team to the 04 Pistons. The biggest difference with the 04 Pistons though was their lack of ego and strong sense of identity. They played amazing team defense and offensively it was never about one guy. The Pacers need that same mindset. They are fooling themselves if they think George is going to keep pace with Lebron in a 7 game series and win.

[Evantime34]

Isn't thus basically what the Denver nuggets have been trying to do since they moved melo?

But they've been handing out bad deals to players like Wilson Chandler and Al Harrington and had an inferior coach in George Karl.

Agree with Denver as a failed model but not Wilson Chandler at $6 MM is hardly a bad deal. JaVale McGee at $11.5 MM next year is a different story. I think George Karl is a good coach, the reason why he isn't coaching is because he wants to be paid like a great coach.

I think the problem with the philosophy of having a bunch of good players on mid level deals rather than a great player or two on a max deal is that every mid level player needs to be hit on perfectly, where great players on max deals leave more room for error with the other players. Also if you fail at the midlevel method it is more difficult to create the cap space to get the next max player than if you had a great player previously. In general I would say this method is doable, it just has a much higher degree of difficulty.

[hpantazo]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber or Sheed for example

Exactly.

When you can't get a Lebron/Durant you get the next best thing (Melo/George) and do what you can. I think the Pacers are a very similar type of team to the 04 Pistons. The biggest difference with the 04 Pistons though was their lack of ego and strong sense of identity. They played amazing team defense and offensively it was never about one guy. The Pacers need that same mindset. They are fooling themselves if they think George is going to keep pace with Lebron in a 7 game series and win.

well put, the Pacers are an excellent example

[Mr October]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber or Sheed for example

Exactly.

When you can't get a Lebron/Durant you get the next best thing (Melo/George) and do what you can. I think the Pacers are a very similar type of team to the 04 Pistons. The biggest difference with the 04 Pistons though was their lack of ego and strong sense of identity. They played amazing team defense and offensively it was never about one guy. The Pacers need that same mindset. They are fooling themselves if they think George is going to keep pace with Lebron in a 7 game series and win.

Yup, ainge has said in the past that you need star talent. Joe Dumars was lucky / shrewd in that he found borderline stars on non max contracts for that pistons title in 2004.

What he was saying is that, although ideally you want a superstar on your team, there just aren't enough of them to go around. Kevin durant and Lebron James are it this year.

We got lucky in that Garnett had one elite superstar season left in him in 2007-08. Then injury struck, followed  by age.

Luck plays a ton in this too. What if KG doesnt get injured in 2009? What if Karl Malone doesn't get injured just before the NBA finals in 2004. How would the Wallace's have fared against shaq and Malone.

The biggest key in the non superstar approach, i think, is that you need great defense. And that defense needs to be anchored by a big man.

[hpantazo]

I think you guys misunderstood Ainge here. He never said you don't need all-stars, he said you don't need superstars like lebron , Kobe. Duncan, etc. I'm sure he doesn't mean let's build a contender with Jeff Green, Asik, and Bradley, I think he means more like let's get Aldridge to pair with Rondo and some good players. Aldridge is not Durant, Lebron, or even Anthony Davis level, but with a great supporting cast he could be your Webber or Sheed for example

Exactly.

When you can't get a Lebron/Durant you get the next best thing (Melo/George) and do what you can. I think the Pacers are a very similar type of team to the 04 Pistons. The biggest difference with the 04 Pistons though was their lack of ego and strong sense of identity. They played amazing team defense and offensively it was never about one guy. The Pacers need that same mindset. They are fooling themselves if they think George is going to keep pace with Lebron in a 7 game series and win.

Yup, ainge has said in the past that you need star talent. Joe Dumars was lucky / shrewd in that he found borderline stars on non max contracts for that pistons title in 2004.

What he was saying is that, although ideally you want a superstar on your team, there just aren't enough of them to go around. Kevin durant and Lebron James are it this year.

We got lucky in that Garnett had one elite superstar season left in him in 2007-08. Then injury struck, followed  by age.

Luck plays a ton in this too. What if KG doesnt get injured in 2009? What if Karl Malone doesn't get injured just before the NBA finals in 2004. How would the Wallace's have fared against shaq and Malone.

The biggest key in the non superstar approach, i think, is that you need great defense. And that defense needs to be anchored by a big man.

exactly, as you said, a big man, aka...not Avery Bradley. Nothing wrong with AB, but you don't pay your defensive backup guard 8-9 million a year, you spend that on getting a defensive big man to complement your stars

[cletus1985]

I think the Detroit model is almost impossible to duplicate, that was just a perfect storm of players that didn't seem to fit on other teams that gelled together and beat the world, with the mid-season acquisition of Sheed that put them over the top.

Here's my best attempt to duplicate sacramento.

Ty Lawson: Offensively gifted, decent passer, dangerous from 3
Avery Bradley: Lacks the size of a conventional SG, but very similar skills to Christie
Danilo Gallinari: Injury concerns are killing him, but I think he could be Peja-esque if healthy in a similar system
Lamarcus Aldridge: Webber light, a little more shooting range then Webber, but less effective in most other areas
Joakim Noah: One of the most skilled passing big men out there right now, rebounds and scores at a similar rate to Vlade that year, probably a better defender (definitely more versatile).

Jamal Crawford: scoring threat off the bench with decent handles (may be a better fit here, couldn't think of any)
Paul Pierce: Point-forward with shooting skill who rebounds
8-12: a rookie or 2 and a couple of vet min type guys who can maintain (won't win games, but won't lose games either)

Not a perfect example, but no two teams are identical. May have to swap Bradley out for a SG with size so they don't get matchup nightmares, but I think given this roster Bradley would see a lot of open shots and become a better 3pt shooter and his D is right on track with Christie, why couldn't he just be 5" taller?