Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?

[Galeto]

I don't think there's any chance Vonleh turns into JaJuan Johnson.  I suppose he can bust but to flop like JaJuan because he's too skinny and can't rebound, no, I don't see that.  Vonleh's already much stronger and better on the boards than Johnson.  If Johnson had Vonleh's body, he wouldn't have busted.

[Tr1boy]

As an Arizona alum who has watched every Gordon game I can offer a little insight.  I'll admit he is a tough one to judge, just because his shooting(including from the line) has been downright horrific at times. He hasn't shown that natural offensive touch that you would like to see from a future all-star. 

The thing is though, everything else that you want is there.  The defense, the intangibles, the athleticism...great character guy, awesome teammate.  He's a ridiculously hard worker - first in/last out kind of guy.  Fiercely competitive.  And reports are that he shoots well in practice. Especially with the free-throw shooting, it clearly seems like a mental thing at this point.  Given his age and work ethic, I can't see him not becoming a respectable shooter down the road. 

Bottom line is, he's someone you want to go to war with.  At this point, I'd have no problem taking him 6 or later.   

+1.

[TwinTower14]

As an Arizona alum who has watched every Gordon game I can offer a little insight.  I'll admit he is a tough one to judge, just because his shooting(including from the line) has been downright horrific at times. He hasn't shown that natural offensive touch that you would like to see from a future all-star. 

The thing is though, everything else that you want is there.  The defense, the intangibles, the athleticism...great character guy, awesome teammate.  He's a ridiculously hard worker - first in/last out kind of guy.  Fiercely competitive.  And reports are that he shoots well in practice. Especially with the free-throw shooting, it clearly seems like a mental thing at this point.  Given his age and work ethic, I can't see him not becoming a respectable shooter down the road. 

Bottom line is, he's someone you want to go to war with.  At this point, I'd have no problem taking him 6 or later.   

+1.

funny, I thought the same thing the other day watching him.  He strikes me as a guy that is going to figure it out.  I would be happy with either Gordon or Vonleh and I am really hoping the C's get Hairston with their second pick...

[Fafnir]

Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.

Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?

I would go for Drummond over Griffin as well. I have no way of knowing this anymore than you would, but if both were thrown into this years draft exactly how they are today, I think Drummond goes before Griffin.

If you're a big believer in the "wins produced" thing I guess.

Of course that'd also have you believing DeAndre Jordan is the superior player to Blake as well.

[mmmmm]

I don't think there's any chance Vonleh turns into JaJuan Johnson.  I suppose he can bust but to flop like JaJuan because he's too skinny and can't rebound, no, I don't see that.  Vonleh's already much stronger and better on the boards than Johnson.  If Johnson had Vonleh's body, he wouldn't have busted.

I don't know why this is even a topic.

JJJ was a bottom-of-the-first round pick, #27.  Any pick down there is pretty much a total gamble.  That one didn't pay off.  No biggie.  Busts down there happen all the time.

Vonleh here is a totally different thing.  We are discussing him as a #5-8 pick in a loaded draft.   If he's a bust, that would be a major disaster.   But that is far, far less likely to happen.

If Vonleh or any of these top guys bust, the comparable is not JaJuan Johnson.  The comparable is Darko.

[PhoSita]

Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.

Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?

I would go for Drummond over Griffin as well. I have no way of knowing this anymore than you would, but if both were thrown into this years draft exactly how they are today, I think Drummond goes before Griffin.

If you're a big believer in the "wins produced" thing I guess.

Of course that'd also have you believing DeAndre Jordan is the superior player to Blake as well.

wins produced, in my experience, is a good indicator of who is producing a lot for good teams.  it doesn't tell you much about what is allowing them to produce, or how valuable they actually are in relation to the other guys who are producing a lot.

on that Clippers team, Paul, Griffin, and Jordan are all putting up great WS/48 numbers; accordingly, the team is winning a lot of games.  But which of those three is doing the most to make all that winning possible?

the only time WS and WS/48 is fool-proof, I think, is when you see a player with a ton of Win Shares on a team that isn't that good because nobody else on the team is producing.  then it's pretty clear that any success the team enjoys is by and large thanks to the efforts of that single player.

[Fafnir]

I think we're talking about different things Phosita. I'm talking about the Dave Berri "wins produced" or "points over par" that the guys on Boxscoregeeks.com use.

Different from WS and WS/48.

They have Drummond as the 3rd most productive in the game, already the "next Shaq". Jordan is the 5th (only slightly worse than LBJ)

[PhoSita]

I think we're talking about different things Phosita. I'm talking about the Dave Berri "wins produced" or "points over par" that the guys on Boxscoregeeks.com use.

Different from WS and WS/48.

They have Drummond as the 3rd most productive in the game, already the "next Shaq". Jordan is the 5th (only slightly worse than LBJ)

Ah okay.  I'm not familiar with Wins Produced.  I know that Win Shares really favor big men, though.  Deandre Jordan is rated very highly by that metric, as is Drummond.

As for the Drummond / Shaq thing, I think the closer comp is Dwight Howard.  Similar height and physical freakiness, similar lack of advanced post moves or touch.  All three have issues with free throws, although Drummond might be the worst of the bunch.

[PhoSita]

As an Arizona alum who has watched every Gordon game I can offer a little insight.  I'll admit he is a tough one to judge, just because his shooting(including from the line) has been downright horrific at times. He hasn't shown that natural offensive touch that you would like to see from a future all-star. 

The thing is though, everything else that you want is there.  The defense, the intangibles, the athleticism...great character guy, awesome teammate.  He's a ridiculously hard worker - first in/last out kind of guy.  Fiercely competitive.  And reports are that he shoots well in practice. Especially with the free-throw shooting, it clearly seems like a mental thing at this point.  Given his age and work ethic, I can't see him not becoming a respectable shooter down the road. 

Bottom line is, he's someone you want to go to war with.  At this point, I'd have no problem taking him 6 or later.   

+1.

All the above is what really makes me like the idea of getting Gordon.  Maybe he doesn't become a dominant star, but he could still be a really nice piece that does a lot for the team, similar to Andre Iguodala, or perhaps Shawn Marion (who still did plenty of scoring with the help of Steve Nash).

The concern, of course, is that it's hard to find a space these days for perimeter-oriented players who can't shoot.  All the talent and intangibles in the world can't alleviate that all that much -- just look at MKG.  So Gordon might be forced to operate as an undersized 4 similar to Paul Millsap or Josh Smith (or as Marion did for parts of his career).  He might be great in that role, but that presents a conflict since our best young player at the moment is a 4.

[Tr1boy]

I think we're talking about different things Phosita. I'm talking about the Dave Berri "wins produced" or "points over par" that the guys on Boxscoregeeks.com use.

Different from WS and WS/48.

They have Drummond as the 3rd most productive in the game, already the "next Shaq". Jordan is the 5th (only slightly worse than LBJ)

Drummond is 3rd most productive but why do the pistons stink? They have a good lineup and he is a big part of the team

Maybe drummond lacks leadership, maybe he makes dumb moves at crucial parts of the game etc.

Gordon might not be as productive or ever will be, but his team wins. Look at him on defense and he is great at communicating with his teammates. He is also one of the first back in transition defense etc.

The effort and able to play team ball is elite. These are underrated qualities to also consider when drafting players

[Dog_Lover106]

Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.

Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?

I would go for Drummond over Griffin as well. I have no way of knowing this anymore than you would, but if both were thrown into this years draft exactly how they are today, I think Drummond goes before Griffin.

If you're a big believer in the "wins produced" thing I guess.

Of course that'd also have you believing DeAndre Jordan is the superior player to Blake as well.

No I do not think DeAndre Jordan is a better player than Griffin. But, I would take Drummond over Griffin as I said before. I also believe a majority of NBA GM's would take Drummond as well, but again this is only my speculation as a basketball fan.
 
So for the record, my NBA player ranking of the three NBA names now in this conversation is:

1)Andre Drummond
2)Blake Griffin
3)DeAndre Jordan

With regard to Vonleh, I believe I can offer a bit more informed opinion as to what type of player he is than most anyone else here, as I have seen him play quite a bit.

[Dog_Lover106]

I think we're talking about different things Phosita. I'm talking about the Dave Berri "wins produced" or "points over par" that the guys on Boxscoregeeks.com use.

Different from WS and WS/48.

They have Drummond as the 3rd most productive in the game, already the "next Shaq". Jordan is the 5th (only slightly worse than LBJ)

Drummond is 3rd most productive but why do the pistons stink? They have a good lineup and he is a big part of the team

Maybe drummond lacks leadership, maybe he makes dumb moves at crucial parts of the game etc.

Gordon might not be as productive or ever will be, but his team wins. Look at him on defense and he is great at communicating with his teammates. He is also one of the first back in transition defense etc.

The effort and able to play team ball is elite. These are underrated qualities to also consider when drafting players

"Maybe drummond lacks leadership, maybe he makes dumb moves at crucial parts of the game etc."

Andre Drummond is 7 months older than Joel Embiid. What kind of NBA leadership role were you expecting from someone barely 20 years old?

 

[vjcsmoke]

I think that Gordon is more of a glue guy.  He'll do the dirty work, the hustle plays, defend, play smart.  But he looks seriously bad offensively. 

Bad shooter, can't create his own shot, basically has to rely on others feeding him easy buckets, or getting offense from movement based plays like backdoor cuts, oops, etc.

So in my mind, he's like a poor man's Shane Battier who can't shoot.  At least with Battier, you got a guy who could also space the floor and threaten the defense on the perimeter.  Knocking down some wide open shots.

With Vonleh, I'm worried that he's not really an elite defender or athlete.  But you can't teach his length and it looks like he has the basic offensive fundamentals down where he knows how to exploit his size and length in the post game.  I'm just not convinced that either of these players would deserve to be in the top 5.  But in the latter portions of the lottery I could see it.

Vonleh's upside might be a poor man's Rasheed Wallace.  Because he has some range to his shooting as a big man.  I worry about his strength and defensive game though.

[Tr1boy]

I think we're talking about different things Phosita. I'm talking about the Dave Berri "wins produced" or "points over par" that the guys on Boxscoregeeks.com use.

Different from WS and WS/48.

They have Drummond as the 3rd most productive in the game, already the "next Shaq". Jordan is the 5th (only slightly worse than LBJ)

Drummond is 3rd most productive but why do the pistons stink? They have a good lineup and he is a big part of the team

Maybe drummond lacks leadership, maybe he makes dumb moves at crucial parts of the game etc.

Gordon might not be as productive or ever will be, but his team wins. Look at him on defense and he is great at communicating with his teammates. He is also one of the first back in transition defense etc.

The effort and able to play team ball is elite. These are underrated qualities to also consider when drafting players

"Maybe drummond lacks leadership, maybe he makes dumb moves at crucial parts of the game etc."

Andre Drummond is 7 months older than Joel Embiid. What kind of NBA leadership role were you expecting from someone barely 20 years old?

 

Some guys build their leadership skills later (if ever). But the ones that have it from the start end up being better overall players imo.

Look at sully . He has been known to be a leader ever since hs.

Gordon has tremendous leadership qualities for his age.

[Mr October]

I saw Noah vonleh play again last night. He is a pretty awesome player. His offense was dominant when he actually got the ball, including hitting a couple 3 pointers. It's too bad his Indiana teammates are terrible, and want to hog the ball instead of feeding the post.

Between these 2 players i had been liking Gordon, but now i think vonleh is ahead of him, and could crack the top 5.