Poll

Who do you like more between Gordon and Vonleh?

Aaron Gordon
14 (23.7%)
Noah Vonleh
45 (76.3%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?  (Read 44928 times)

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Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2014, 01:42:21 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2014, 02:07:14 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Vonleh is a better player than gordon even if his team has a mediocre record. Lets digest on that for a sec. What if gordon was playing for indiana or vonleh for arizona. Would their records still be the same as today?

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin. But look at the pistons vs clippers. Imo you have to look at other things than the "perfect" or "ideal". Some guys without perfect length, size, skills still help your team win. I would like both but i rather have a guy who knows how to win if i had to choose. Especially when building a team .

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2014, 02:12:24 PM »

Offline KGs Knee

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Vonleh is a better player than gordon even if his team has a mediocre record. Lets digest on that for a sec. What if gordon was playing for indiana or vonleh for arizona. Would their records still be the same as today?

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin. But look at the pistons vs clippers. Imo you have to look at other things than the "perfect" or "ideal". Some guys without perfect length, size, skills still help your team win. I would like both but i rather have a guy who knows how to win if i had to choose. Especially when building a team .

Your logic completely ignores the impact of the individual player's teammates.  Being on the better team does not inherently make you the better player.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2014, 02:35:57 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.

Vonleh is a better player than gordon even if his team has a mediocre record. Lets digest on that for a sec. What if gordon was playing for indiana or vonleh for arizona. Would their records still be the same as today?

Drummond for example is considered better than griffin. But look at the pistons vs clippers. Imo you have to look at other things than the "perfect" or "ideal". Some guys without perfect length, size, skills still help your team win. I would like both but i rather have a guy who knows how to win if i had to choose. Especially when building a team .

Your logic completely ignores the impact of the individual player's teammates.  Being on the better team does not inherently make you the better player.

We wont know exactly. But for me gordons team is better and he has been a key reason why

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2014, 02:40:41 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Vonleh and almost all of the mocks have him higher than Gordon.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2014, 03:42:49 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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Vonleh and almost all of the mocks have him higher than Gordon.
as long as the celtics take vonleh instead of gordon i am completely fine with that.  :)
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Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2014, 04:20:10 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.
Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.
Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2014, 04:20:45 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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This has been a very good thread.

'Might as well throw my $.02 into it.  I'm going to compare these guys to one of our current 6' 9" players.

Vonleh has been one of my draft binkies for a while.   His physical upside is very, very alluring.   He has a nice shooting form.   Offensively, his game is actually similar to Jeff Green.  Yes, he's got a bigger body and a couple more inches of wingspan, but like Green he is an outside-in scorer.  He has a nice outside shooting touch and when he drives, if he can elevate anywhere within a few feet of the rim, he has the touch to put it in the hoop.   He's not the transition weapon that Green is, though.  But he has the potential to learn to use his bulk in the post.   If he does, he has the potential to be an elite scoring PF.

Defensively, though, Vonleh is nothing like Green.  He is mostly a lost babe in the woods on defense.  Among the top 10 players, I think he may be the _worst_ at getting caught flat footed and out of position on P&R defense.   I can only hope this is due to how young he is.

Gordon is like a mirror image.  He's got comparatively average physical tools, but does make good use of them.  Gets up & down the floor quickly and uses great fundamentals on defense to make his reach seem longer than it really is.  Great at shot contention.   Defensively, Gordon reminds me, again, of Green.   He's extremely good on the perimeter, plays great team defense and generally is always in the right place to make a smart defensive play.  Like Green, he is prone to getting pushed around by big bodies, though.  And because he tends to be keep his man outside, like Green, he is rarely in position for defensive rebounds.  He's good at causing misses, but he needs his teammates to grab those and help block out weakside crashers.

Offensively, though, Gordon is nothing like Green.  Gordon's only real scoring skills in the half court are inside-out.  If he gets a mismatch, he can score near the rim and he's a fairly smart passer.  So he hangs around the baseline and cuts inside a lot.  This does get him in position for a lot of ORBs.   But ultimately, Gordon has terrible shooting form, from pretty much everywhere on the court, including the FT line.   He looks just awful with his wrist action coming so late in his motion that his shot is wicked flat.  He has no touch on the ball when taking shots in traffic.   I can only hope this is because he, too, is so very young.

Basically, both these guys have serious talent and yet also serious holes in their games.

The thing is, as has been mentioned by others, they are both very young.  Two of the youngest players that will be in this draft (assuming they both declare).   There is a reasonable chance that each will eventually be able to fix the weakness in his respective game.   But I don't think either will be a complete player for at least a couple of years, maybe longer.

If they both reach their upside, where Vonleh learns how to play defense and Gordon learns how to shoot, then both should be solid starters on good teams.

But if they don't fix the holes in their games, then Vonleh turns into that classic high-scoring/no defense 'star player' on a perpetually bad team and Gordon becomes that defensive specialist off the bench for a good team.

Bringing the discussion to the Celtics (and ignoring that trades could make all this moot):  Neither is likely to be as good as Sullinger as a starting PF.    Gordon could immediately be a useful backup behind Green at SF - a guy who won't hurt you when assigned to defend the position that is usually the best scorer on the other team.  He's still slight of build, but he wouldn't need to put on much weight to play SF.   So he may be the more immediately useful of the two.   If he learns how to shoot, then he becomes a home run.  If not, you'll at least get your value out of him on defense.

Vonleh has the higher upside as a player because of his scoring potential, but if he can't play defense, he could take years to get to the point where you'd trust him on the floor if you are a 'good team'.   But at the PF, I don't see how he gets time on this team, barring major roster changes.   And he may never learn to be a good defender.   So I think he also has a lower floor than Gordon.   Although, you could probably play him enough to get gaudy stats and trade him.

My gut expectation is that if Danny doesn't get a top-5 pick, that he probably trades out.   I don't think he's looking to draft a guy who will take most of his rookie contract to develop.   But predicting Danny is a fool's game.
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Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2014, 06:50:57 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Both guys have things that scare me.   Gordon has an lack of skills aside from his physical ones ( he can run and leap).   Vonleh could be good but he could be JaJuan Johnson too.  Neither of these guys are lock down sure things.

I've seen us projected to take Marcus Smart on a lot of boards.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2014, 06:54:07 PM »

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.
Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.
Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?
Yeah I'd like to hear this too. Drummond has been having a good year but Blake is All-star level.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2014, 08:25:18 PM »

Offline Dog_Lover106

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Gordon can play SF. Regardless if he doesn't have ideal perimeter skills for a SF, he can lock opposing SFs down defensively.

This is my biggest worry about Gordon.  Offensively he just isn't particularly talented.  He gets by on athleticism and hustle.  His ceiling is most likely "role player".  His natural position (based on size) should be SF, but he doesn't have the offensive game of a SF, he has the offensive game of a 'garbage-man' type PF.  While he probably could step into the NBA and defend wings right off the bat, that only gets you so far.

Gordon may very well have a nice career as a possible starter or 6th man type, but you shouldn't be picking players with that as their ceiling in the lottery.

Vonleh, while currently more 'raw', has much higher upside.  His talent isn't very well developed on the offensive end yet, but he at least has the physical attributes to match his style of play and you can see the potential is there.  He is also likely to be a more valuable defensive player.  Interior defensive presences are just more valued than wing defenders.
Drummond for example is considered better than griffin.
Drummond is considered better than Blake Griffin?

By whom exactly?
I would go for Drummond over Griffin as well. I have no way of knowing this anymore than you would, but if both were thrown into this years draft exactly how they are today, I think Drummond goes before Griffin.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2014, 08:25:53 PM »

Offline tyrone biggums

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Both guys have things that scare me.   Gordon has an lack of skills aside from his physical ones ( he can run and leap).   Vonleh could be good but he could be JaJuan Johnson too.  Neither of these guys are lock down sure things.

I've seen us projected to take Marcus Smart on a lot of boards.

JJJ was a Senior if I recall. Vonleh and Gordon are both freshmen. Big difference. Vonleh could also be Drummond and have the 3nd highest ceiling out of the entire draft next to Wiggins and Embiid. You just don't know. I think he's a lock to go #5 with Smart as #6 after that who knows. Gordon probably goes #7 but March Madness could throw everything off and put a guy like Cauley-Stein or Hood in the top 5.

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2014, 08:33:14 PM »

Offline Dog_Lover106

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This has been a very good thread.

'Might as well throw my $.02 into it.  I'm going to compare these guys to one of our current 6' 9" players.

Vonleh has been one of my draft binkies for a while.   His physical upside is very, very alluring.   He has a nice shooting form.   Offensively, his game is actually similar to Jeff Green.  Yes, he's got a bigger body and a couple more inches of wingspan, but like Green he is an outside-in scorer.  He has a nice outside shooting touch and when he drives, if he can elevate anywhere within a few feet of the rim, he has the touch to put it in the hoop.   He's not the transition weapon that Green is, though.  But he has the potential to learn to use his bulk in the post.   If he does, he has the potential to be an elite scoring PF.

Defensively, though, Vonleh is nothing like Green.  He is mostly a lost babe in the woods on defense.  Among the top 10 players, I think he may be the _worst_ at getting caught flat footed and out of position on P&R defense.   I can only hope this is due to how young he is.

Gordon is like a mirror image.  He's got comparatively average physical tools, but does make good use of them.  Gets up & down the floor quickly and uses great fundamentals on defense to make his reach seem longer than it really is.  Great at shot contention.   Defensively, Gordon reminds me, again, of Green.   He's extremely good on the perimeter, plays great team defense and generally is always in the right place to make a smart defensive play.  Like Green, he is prone to getting pushed around by big bodies, though.  And because he tends to be keep his man outside, like Green, he is rarely in position for defensive rebounds.  He's good at causing misses, but he needs his teammates to grab those and help block out weakside crashers.

Offensively, though, Gordon is nothing like Green.  Gordon's only real scoring skills in the half court are inside-out.  If he gets a mismatch, he can score near the rim and he's a fairly smart passer.  So he hangs around the baseline and cuts inside a lot.  This does get him in position for a lot of ORBs.   But ultimately, Gordon has terrible shooting form, from pretty much everywhere on the court, including the FT line.   He looks just awful with his wrist action coming so late in his motion that his shot is wicked flat.  He has no touch on the ball when taking shots in traffic.   I can only hope this is because he, too, is so very young.

Basically, both these guys have serious talent and yet also serious holes in their games.

The thing is, as has been mentioned by others, they are both very young.  Two of the youngest players that will be in this draft (assuming they both declare).   There is a reasonable chance that each will eventually be able to fix the weakness in his respective game.   But I don't think either will be a complete player for at least a couple of years, maybe longer.

If they both reach their upside, where Vonleh learns how to play defense and Gordon learns how to shoot, then both should be solid starters on good teams.

But if they don't fix the holes in their games, then Vonleh turns into that classic high-scoring/no defense 'star player' on a perpetually bad team and Gordon becomes that defensive specialist off the bench for a good team.

Bringing the discussion to the Celtics (and ignoring that trades could make all this moot):  Neither is likely to be as good as Sullinger as a starting PF.    Gordon could immediately be a useful backup behind Green at SF - a guy who won't hurt you when assigned to defend the position that is usually the best scorer on the other team.  He's still slight of build, but he wouldn't need to put on much weight to play SF.   So he may be the more immediately useful of the two.   If he learns how to shoot, then he becomes a home run.  If not, you'll at least get your value out of him on defense.

Vonleh has the higher upside as a player because of his scoring potential, but if he can't play defense, he could take years to get to the point where you'd trust him on the floor if you are a 'good team'.   But at the PF, I don't see how he gets time on this team, barring major roster changes.   And he may never learn to be a good defender.   So I think he also has a lower floor than Gordon.   Although, you could probably play him enough to get gaudy stats and trade him.

My gut expectation is that if Danny doesn't get a top-5 pick, that he probably trades out.   I don't think he's looking to draft a guy who will take most of his rookie contract to develop.   But predicting Danny is a fool's game.
Just curious on where you are getting your Noah Vonleh evaluation from? More specifically, is the sample size just his IU games or did you see Noah play with Mass Rivals or his during two years at New Hampton?

Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2014, 08:48:05 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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This has been a very good thread.

'Might as well throw my $.02 into it.  I'm going to compare these guys to one of our current 6' 9" players.

Vonleh has been one of my draft binkies for a while.   His physical upside is very, very alluring.   He has a nice shooting form.   Offensively, his game is actually similar to Jeff Green.  Yes, he's got a bigger body and a couple more inches of wingspan, but like Green he is an outside-in scorer.  He has a nice outside shooting touch and when he drives, if he can elevate anywhere within a few feet of the rim, he has the touch to put it in the hoop.   He's not the transition weapon that Green is, though.  But he has the potential to learn to use his bulk in the post.   If he does, he has the potential to be an elite scoring PF.

Defensively, though, Vonleh is nothing like Green.  He is mostly a lost babe in the woods on defense.  Among the top 10 players, I think he may be the _worst_ at getting caught flat footed and out of position on P&R defense.   I can only hope this is due to how young he is.

Gordon is like a mirror image.  He's got comparatively average physical tools, but does make good use of them.  Gets up & down the floor quickly and uses great fundamentals on defense to make his reach seem longer than it really is.  Great at shot contention.   Defensively, Gordon reminds me, again, of Green.   He's extremely good on the perimeter, plays great team defense and generally is always in the right place to make a smart defensive play.  Like Green, he is prone to getting pushed around by big bodies, though.  And because he tends to be keep his man outside, like Green, he is rarely in position for defensive rebounds.  He's good at causing misses, but he needs his teammates to grab those and help block out weakside crashers.

Offensively, though, Gordon is nothing like Green.  Gordon's only real scoring skills in the half court are inside-out.  If he gets a mismatch, he can score near the rim and he's a fairly smart passer.  So he hangs around the baseline and cuts inside a lot.  This does get him in position for a lot of ORBs.   But ultimately, Gordon has terrible shooting form, from pretty much everywhere on the court, including the FT line.   He looks just awful with his wrist action coming so late in his motion that his shot is wicked flat.  He has no touch on the ball when taking shots in traffic.   I can only hope this is because he, too, is so very young.

Basically, both these guys have serious talent and yet also serious holes in their games.

The thing is, as has been mentioned by others, they are both very young.  Two of the youngest players that will be in this draft (assuming they both declare).   There is a reasonable chance that each will eventually be able to fix the weakness in his respective game.   But I don't think either will be a complete player for at least a couple of years, maybe longer.

If they both reach their upside, where Vonleh learns how to play defense and Gordon learns how to shoot, then both should be solid starters on good teams.

But if they don't fix the holes in their games, then Vonleh turns into that classic high-scoring/no defense 'star player' on a perpetually bad team and Gordon becomes that defensive specialist off the bench for a good team.

Bringing the discussion to the Celtics (and ignoring that trades could make all this moot):  Neither is likely to be as good as Sullinger as a starting PF.    Gordon could immediately be a useful backup behind Green at SF - a guy who won't hurt you when assigned to defend the position that is usually the best scorer on the other team.  He's still slight of build, but he wouldn't need to put on much weight to play SF.   So he may be the more immediately useful of the two.   If he learns how to shoot, then he becomes a home run.  If not, you'll at least get your value out of him on defense.

Vonleh has the higher upside as a player because of his scoring potential, but if he can't play defense, he could take years to get to the point where you'd trust him on the floor if you are a 'good team'.   But at the PF, I don't see how he gets time on this team, barring major roster changes.   And he may never learn to be a good defender.   So I think he also has a lower floor than Gordon.   Although, you could probably play him enough to get gaudy stats and trade him.

My gut expectation is that if Danny doesn't get a top-5 pick, that he probably trades out.   I don't think he's looking to draft a guy who will take most of his rookie contract to develop.   But predicting Danny is a fool's game.
Just curious on where you are getting your Noah Vonleh evaluation from? More specifically, is the sample size just his IU games or did you see Noah play with Mass Rivals or his during two years at New Hampton?

Just his IU games.   I did not get to see him before this year.

I fully concede my evaluation is worth no more than the $.02 price.   It's always a huge guessing game with how these kids will turn out.   They are so young - especially these two guys if they come out after 1 year.    Some kids do way better in the NBA than in their college system.   Some do much worse.
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Re: Aaron Gordon or Noah Vonleh?
« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2014, 10:47:34 PM »

Offline JAuch12

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As an Arizona alum who has watched every Gordon game I can offer a little insight.  I'll admit he is a tough one to judge, just because his shooting(including from the line) has been downright horrific at times. He hasn't shown that natural offensive touch that you would like to see from a future all-star. 

The thing is though, everything else that you want is there.  The defense, the intangibles, the athleticism...great character guy, awesome teammate.  He's a ridiculously hard worker - first in/last out kind of guy.  Fiercely competitive.  And reports are that he shoots well in practice. Especially with the free-throw shooting, it clearly seems like a mental thing at this point.  Given his age and work ethic, I can't see him not becoming a respectable shooter down the road. 

Bottom line is, he's someone you want to go to war with.  At this point, I'd have no problem taking him 6 or later.