We are now tied with Brooklyn.

[Moranis]

Also, I'd guess that the fans of teams in the biggest, glitziest markets aren't especially bothered by players colluding.  It's probably depressing for fans of teams in less exciting locations, because it means that no matter how well their team is managed, they will likely still be at a major disadvantage compared to teams that can just sign a bunch of really good players in free agency.

Yeah, I think that's fair, especially with 1-2 players being able to make a huge difference in a team's success.  But players constantly leaving small markets for big is true of every league that's not the NFL, and the NFL has way too much parity for me.  And unlike baseball, the salary rules make this much harder to do unless players take voluntary pay cuts.

But I also think a lot of people implicitly like the idea of the NBA working like a fantasy team, where players are just passive assets that you shuffle around.  Players having minds of their own and the agency to act on it just muddles that picture.

I must admit, I do enjoy that idea.

I'd much rather see championship teams built with good drafting and trading. 

Obviously, Miami didn't just get a title by default.  The players, once they came together, still had to figure out how to work together.  Now that they've reached that point, though, they're dominating the NBA.

I guess it's because I identify more with the people running the teams than with the players themselves, so I want to see championships as, in large part, an achievement of the people making strategic moves in the front office, rather than as the work of the players on the court.

Thing is, I like that idea better too.  Everybody hates the guy who stacks the teams in pickup, and situations like the Heat's are kinda a similar idea at a much higher level.  Success through savvy management just feels more satisfying somehow.

But I just can't get past that players have a limited career with a highly valued skillset and ought to have some say in how they spend that time maximizing what they get out of that ability.  Not to mention that being an attractive destination for players is part of savvy management.  The opposite philosophy results in treating players like property, which is really unseemly for a number of reasons.

I think the salary cap and especially new luxury taxes are a very good check against that process getting out of hand, though.  Want to play with your buddies or in a nice city?  Better be an elite talent or willing to take a paycut.

But Miami had savvy management.  They knew what that summer could yield and set up the team to have cap space for 3 near max contracts by making trades and not signing anyone long term.  They essentially gave up a season to ensure they had cap space and had Bosh agreed to go to Cleveland it would have all been for naught (Cleveland and Toronto had worked out a sign and trade and Lebron pushed hard to convince Bosh to go to Cleveland, but Bosh just wouldn't do it, which prompted Lebron to leave).  Just like Chicago, Dallas, New York, Brooklyn, etc. did, but with much less success.  The Lakers are setting themselves up to try this summer, only time will tell if they are successful.  Miami had the cap space.  They had Wade.  They had Riley and Spoelstra (who is incredibly well liked by players).  And sure the location and state tax situation helps Miami, but none of that is possible without incredibly savvy management with the balls to risk failure (Wade could have easily gone home to Chicago after being tired of the status quo in Miami).

[BballTim]

Also, I'd guess that the fans of teams in the biggest, glitziest markets aren't especially bothered by players colluding.  It's probably depressing for fans of teams in less exciting locations, because it means that no matter how well their team is managed, they will likely still be at a major disadvantage compared to teams that can just sign a bunch of really good players in free agency.

Yeah, I think that's fair, especially with 1-2 players being able to make a huge difference in a team's success.  But players constantly leaving small markets for big is true of every league that's not the NFL, and the NFL has way too much parity for me.  And unlike baseball, the salary rules make this much harder to do unless players take voluntary pay cuts.

But I also think a lot of people implicitly like the idea of the NBA working like a fantasy team, where players are just passive assets that you shuffle around.  Players having minds of their own and the agency to act on it just muddles that picture.

I must admit, I do enjoy that idea.

I'd much rather see championship teams built with good drafting and trading. 

Obviously, Miami didn't just get a title by default.  The players, once they came together, still had to figure out how to work together.  Now that they've reached that point, though, they're dominating the NBA.

I guess it's because I identify more with the people running the teams than with the players themselves, so I want to see championships as, in large part, an achievement of the people making strategic moves in the front office, rather than as the work of the players on the court.

Thing is, I like that idea better too.  Everybody hates the guy who stacks the teams in pickup, and situations like the Heat's are kinda a similar idea at a much higher level.  Success through savvy management just feels more satisfying somehow.

But I just can't get past that players have a limited career with a highly valued skillset and ought to have some say in how they spend that time maximizing what they get out of that ability.  Not to mention that being an attractive destination for players is part of savvy management.  The opposite philosophy results in treating players like property, which is really unseemly for a number of reasons.

I think the salary cap and especially new luxury taxes are a very good check against that process getting out of hand, though.  Want to play with your buddies or in a nice city?  Better be an elite talent or willing to take a paycut.

But Miami had savvy management.  They knew what that summer could yield and set up the team to have cap space for 3 near max contracts by making trades and not signing anyone long term.

  They didn't have savvy management, they had inside information from Wade.

[GreenWarrior]

i'm just going to say this.

it seems like you guys aren't seeing the NBA as a whole. is each team it's own business? sure, but they're all part of one league.   

I acknowledge the fact that players should have a chance to play for a championship, every player should have a chance...or at least want to have a chance.

as far as picking and choosing goes? no I don't think players should have a choice of where they go. nope! not at all.

I bet at least 90% of the players would want to go to a Miami, LA, or settle for a Texas team if they had their choice.

cause i'm sure wade, bosh, & bron would go play in minn. if the opportunity presented itself.   

Well, then I guess you would love for the MLB to go back to when the owners colluded to keep players on slave wages and prevent them from being able to play for another team their entire careers? Sure, that's great for the owners and great for the fans who hate free agency but somehow I don't think that's very fair to the players, now is it?

not really a baseball fan. but let's be real here it's a different era. the players in any sport have franchises by the balls and they know it.

let's not pretend these guys are all being forced to use the same bar of soap.

Your statement that the collected teams are really just actually one big "company" and not 30 individual companies breaking antitrust laws is exactly what the owners argue every time they attempt to break the union before a CBA negotiation. Quite simply it is a totally fraudulent argument made by billionaire owners whose primary intent is to pay players as little as they possibly can while pretending it is for "the good of the game."

yes, they all operate under the NBA logo. one building with 32 floors we'll say.

I think each franchise should be allowed to run their team (to a certain extent) however they see fit.

but I also think the nba has the right to jump in and say if something is wrong or right...or at least have guidelines in place before hand.

but all of that in this case doesn't fuel my gripe because I bet the NBA loves that all 3 of these asses got together to form the superteam. but they should care because the product sucks right now.

[Neurotic Guy]

  You know you're just perpetuating those tanker stereotypes when you start threads like this, right?

I anticipated this response; you'll note that I did not jump for joy or say anything along the lines of I TOLD YOU SO!

I just noticed it when I checked the standings and figured I'd post it.

  You were jumping for joy on the inside, we could tell.

  Tanker.


  Seriously, though, rooting for teams like the Nets or Knicks to do well would be almost as soul-sucking as rooting for the Celts to lose.

Worse than that, how about rooting for the Lakers?  They are 1 game ahead of us and if they dump Pau for waived salary and future considerations they'll be even worse.  We are competing with them for the pick and I would hate to see Mitch pick ahead of Danny.

Re: Atlanta-Nets pick, I'll be very OK with a 15-17 pick -- far better than anyone would have expected at the start of the season.  Nets have a 3-game win streak so let's hope this isn't the start of a trend.

[Onslaught]

I hate the NBA right now.

tons of talent in one conference, the other conference all the talent split between 2 teams.

sure there's injuries to account for but still.

It's been that way many times in the past.

[D.o.s.]

what Miami did should never be allowed.

...and before anyone says "the Celtics did it 1st". there's a difference paul, ray & KG were coming to the end of their careers. not 3 players in their prime in the top 10 - 20 in overall players in the league.

it's watered the league down. way to go out Stern.

Because Miami didn't lose to Dallas and wasn't seconds away from losing to the Spurs last season.

Nothing has been watered down.  What Miami did is how free agency works.  Give it up, just whining at this point.

I've always had a hard time wrapping my head around the logic that when management creates a stacked roster it's A-OK but when players exercise their free agency rights to create a stacked roster it's an abomination against the game somehow. 

It's like players are supposed to be mindless automatons that quietly go where they're told and exercising control over their own careers is a travesty and must be banned.  Bring back the reserve clause!

Nailed it. Miami's probably getting a pair of championships out of gutting their roster to snag three all-stars. Boston got one. The Knicks didn't get one, the Nets probably won't either. It all comes out in the wash. What Miami did is only bad for the league because it wasn't the Celtics.



Also, for what it's worth, the NBA hates the Miami super team. At least, 29 of the 30 ownership entities do. The lockout was all about restricting player movement, and making it harder for superteams to be created/superstars to have a say in the future of the franchise. Didn't matter if you were LeBron going to South Beach or Carmelo going to Manhattan. Part of the reason the league quashed CP3 to the Lakers was because of the outcry on behalf of the ownership about how bad it would look to the world if they'd had a whole lockout in the name of "parity" and then the premiere point guard in the league jets to Hollywood.

[PhoSita]

  They didn't have savvy management, they had inside information from Wade.

Yeah, I don't really view player / management collusion + a warm city + a nice sales pitch to be "savvy management."

[tstorey_97]

(This is supposed to act as a humorous interlude...thank you for your cooperation.)

One of the issues with the Celtics is, as of today, they aren't playing well. Key guys are flat after truly crushing opposing teams for over a month including a veritable spanking of the world champion Heat in their house. They dominated a talent laden east and were in first place for more days than any other team I can think of without actually researching the statement.

Jordan Crawford a two guard who shoots like he plays for the Globe Trotters was a top ten point guard for at least two weeks. Kris Humphries has badly outplayed euro stand out Vitor Faverani and our best back up shooting guard plays for the Grizzlies now.

C's dependable power forward Brandon Bass, has a for sale sign on his forehead, the best player on the team is thinking of playing in Maine when he returns from injury which might be in March. The issue? There isn't an NBA team that plays in Maine. He'll be joining another Celtics shooting guard who has played 61 minutes this season in contrast to Jeff Green's 1125. Brooks gets paid $19,000 a minute at his current rate of play. Not bad work if you can get it.

Everything is going exactly according to Ainge's plan. If he can just trade off some of the other guys who are playing relatively well, 25 wins will be in his grasp.

I'd be in favor of all this if I didn't watch all of the games.

[D.o.s.]

(This is supposed to act as a humorous interlude...thank you for your cooperation.)

One of the issues with the Celtics is, as of today, they aren't playing well. Key guys are flat after truly crushing opposing teams for over a month including a veritable spanking of the world champion Heat in their house. They dominated a talent laden east and were in first place for more days than any other team I can think of without actually researching the statement.

Jordan Crawford a two guard who shoots like he plays for the Globe Trotters was a top ten point guard for at least two weeks. Kris Humphries has badly outplayed euro stand out Vitor Faverani and our best back up shooting guard plays for the Grizzlies now.

C's dependable power forward Brandon Bass, has a for sale sign on his forehead, the best player on the team is thinking of playing in Maine when he returns from injury which might be in March. The issue? There isn't an NBA team that plays in Maine. He'll be joining another Celtics shooting guard who has played 61 minutes this season in contrast to Jeff Green's 1125. Brooks gets paid $19,000 a minute at his current rate of play. Not bad work if you can get it.

Everything is going exactly according to Ainge's plan. If he can just trade off some of the other guys who are playing relatively well, 25 wins will be in his grasp.

I'd be in favor of all this if I didn't watch all of the games.

TP.

[csfansince60s]

KG huge in final minute Nets win over the Warriors.

Nice to see him and the Captain so happy.

Nets have big win without DWill.

Now up 1.5 games on us.

[SHAQATTACK]

Stupid Pacer lose to Hawks .......

[csfansince60s]

Stupid Pacer lose to Hawks .......

That p---ed me off too.

They were very lucky to catch Pacers on 2nd night of back to back and they had to travel .

Figures too that the Pacers beat Toronto last night.

Woulda been much better for us other way around.

I REALLY want the Hawks to have a worse record than  the Nets.  If not, will always feel that they got OUR pick.

Atlanta 3-4 without Horford. They will drop soon. Just taking longer than I thought.

[SparzWizard]

Now we are NOT tied with Brooklyn. And we're about to fall a notch below New York if the Celtics do not capitalize the CP3-less Clippers.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

Now we are NOT tied with Brooklyn. And we're about to fall a notch below New York if the Celtics do not capitalize the CP3-less Clippers.

good luck wit dat !!!!!!!!!!

[Neurotic Guy]

Stupid Pacer lose to Hawks .......

That p---ed me off too.

They were very lucky to catch Pacers on 2nd night of back to back and they had to travel .

Figures too that the Pacers beat Toronto last night.

Woulda been much better for us other way around.

I REALLY want the Hawks to have a worse record than  the Nets.  If not, will always feel that they got OUR pick.

Atlanta 3-4 without Horford. They will drop soon. Just taking longer than I thought.

Yes -- not worried about Atlanta -- it feels that it's a matter of time before they fall below the Nets.  Just hope the Nets don't get too hot.  Getting pick 15-18 would be better than most would have thought possible heading into this year -- and that's certainly a possibility.