Author Topic: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?  (Read 42775 times)

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Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2014, 09:18:12 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote
If Green is a more efficient scorer and a better defender, he may be a better fit for the system that Brad Stevens is trying to create.

I doubt it given Hayward played for him at Butler. 


  That might mean that he's more comfortable with Hayward, not necessarily that he's the better player for the system. I'm sure there are a lot of players in the league that Stevens would pick over Hayward that didn't attend Butler.

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2014, 09:57:58 PM »

Offline slamdunk

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I hope Ainge isn't looking to blow that cap space on this guy.

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #92 on: January 09, 2014, 12:12:05 AM »

Offline footey

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Can't they play on the court together?  Hayward a 2/3, JG a 3/4??

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #93 on: January 09, 2014, 12:53:47 AM »

Offline LEHGOCELTICS

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Yes, reunite the Butler guys here please. Hayward is better than Green right now, and has room for growth whereas with Green, what we see is what we'll get.


all in for r rondo all in for r rondo all in for r rondo all in for r rondo all in for r rondo

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #94 on: January 09, 2014, 01:45:16 AM »

Offline tarheelsxxiii

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Physically gifted? Obviously not. Better player, measured by performance? I'd argue yes. I haven't looked at stats related to consistency... but I imagine Hayward spends more time playing the game than walking around like he is a God than Green does.
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Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #95 on: January 09, 2014, 02:11:18 AM »

Offline chambers

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in 100% seriousness, Jeff Green needs some testosterone therapy and some ritalin or some kind of amphetamine medication for ADHD.

Jeff Green has the far superior tools of the two, he's more athletic and physically gifted.

The only thing that's keeping Green from being in serious All Star discussions is his attitude and mental fortitude.
The guy is just plain soft.

Right.  How, exactly, are we measuring how "soft" he is?   Do we poke him?

By how many points he scores?   Every one wants him to score more points on a "consistent" basis, right?

What the heck is he supposed to do about that?   He can't score more points if he doesn't get more shots.   He doesn't even get to touch the ball on a huge percentage of our possessions.   He runs down the court, calling for the ball only to watch a guard dribble up to the arc and launch a 3.

I've already shown how the number of shots he takes is pretty clearly in the hands of the point guards on this team.   When on the floor with Pressey (a 'pass first' PG) Green takes a massive 30% more shots (and scores 30% more points) than when on the floor with Crawford (a 'shoot first' PG).    Green's USG rate is just 21% with Crawford.  It is 26% with Pressey.  The latter is closer to what you'd expect with a first-option scorer.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Green's minutes have been on the floor with Crawford, not Pressey.

But the time on the floor with Pressey is proof that the "problem" isn't just within Green's own control.    What other players do (or don't do) matters.

Folks need to stop with the fiction that the team around a player (and the coach) don't have a big say in how a player performs.

If Green were scoring 30% more he'd be averaging 22 points per game.  Would that be "tough" enough?

As long as we continue to run the offense through guys like Crawford (and Bradley was no better when he was running it) though,  Green is not going to get more shots off.

Obviously, we have no idea how it will go with Bayless.  He's at least more of a 'PG' than 'SG', but his assist numbers historically aren't that great.

Or, for that matter, how it will go with Rondo.   But we can imagine that Rondo might pass a little more and shoot a little less.

Jeff Green passes up open shots.
Some games he's like a caged gorilla that's been unleashed.
Other games, he's on another planet.
I agree his usage should be higher, and that playing the SF position he needs to get the ball more which is hard with our horrid guard rotation at the moment.
Unfortunately (in my opinion) he doesn't command the ball enough. He talks about being the number one option on this team, but he doesn't demand the ball. He doesn't want to be 'the man' unless he feels like it.
Not that it means much, but my wife is a psychologist and diehard Celtics fan and she agrees. The energy is connected, but not all the lights are running with JG.
Some guys have it, some guys don't.
Of course this is all our own opinion, but I believe a huge test for Jeff will be when Rondo returns and starts giving him the best and easiest passes on the button in the NBA. Will anything change?
Great players WANT the ball. Jeff Green doesn't want the ball. He wants to help Rondo win.
Rondo, KG, Pierce, Ray Allen- they are all killers. They show no mercy and want to be the man.

Jeff Green wants to carry their luggage for them.

What is, "Chambers never watched Kevin Garnett when he played for the Timberwolves," Trebek.

The big knock on KG before he came to the Celtics was that, for all his insanity, he was a shirking violet "when it really mattered," "when the game was on the line," or "when the real leaders step up." Pick your empty sports platitude about shying away from the moment, and KG got hit with it while he was in the frozen tundra of Minnesota.

Well you don't have to be a jeopardy genius to know that
comparing KG in Minny and JG in Boston results in completely polar opposites. KG was a league MVP- he put everything on the line every night- I don't recall a playoff series in Minny where Garnett didn't play his heart out every game.
Being stuck on that team of bums for 25 seasons was always going to draw criticism I guess.

Rondo gets called out for not giving 100% every game- but when the game counts, he doesn't leave anything out there.
KG and Rondo are killers. Jeff Green is not.
Killers are cut from a different cloth and killers win championships. Even smiling assassins like Tim Duncan.
"We are lucky we have a very patient GM that isn't willing to settle for being good and coming close. He wants to win a championship and we have the potential to get there still with our roster and assets."

quoting 'Greg B' on RealGM after 2017 trade deadline.
Read that last line again. One more time.

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #96 on: January 09, 2014, 02:22:29 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Then I suspect your memory of KG's playoff experience in Minnesota is being colored by all the awesome games he had with the Celtics. At least, to the way I remember it, KG didn't have a really great playoff game (let alone series) until 2004... the Kings game where he went off for like 30 and 20.
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #97 on: January 09, 2014, 02:54:37 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #98 on: January 09, 2014, 07:58:25 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Bottom line is neither is an alpha dog.  Both are good B level guys but should not be first options.

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #99 on: January 09, 2014, 08:07:16 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Then I suspect your memory of KG's playoff experience in Minnesota is being colored by all the awesome games he had with the Celtics. At least, to the way I remember it, KG didn't have a really great playoff game (let alone series) until 2004... the Kings game where he went off for like 30 and 20.
It is your memory that is off.  KG's worst playoff series in Minnesota was his second visit to the playoffs in 97-98 and in that series he went for 15.8 p, 9.6 r, 4.0 a, 0.8 s, 2.4 b, with 4.4 t and 3.4 f on 48% from the field and 77.8% from the line.  His first year in the playoffs 96-97 was fairly similar.  After those two series in Minnesota he always averaged a double double and was under 20 points a game just one time (and that year he averaged 8.8 assists per game).  Minnesota didn't win playoff series because they were KG and no one else, not because KG played poorly.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 08:51:58 AM by Moranis »
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Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #100 on: January 09, 2014, 10:45:27 AM »

Offline PaulAllen

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I hope the celtics dont go near Hayward... Hes shooting 41%.. 30% from 3.. I know hes on bad team but like the celtics they have some good young talent... If he played for a contender he would be getting 15 min per game off the bench..

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #101 on: January 09, 2014, 11:05:22 AM »

Offline vinnie

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I just hope Danny trades Uncle Sleepy. So then he can play for another team that doesn't get him the ball enough, doesn't run plays for him, etc. etc. etc.  Poor Uncle Sleepy. He has been a victim of poor coaching and poor game planning for 7 plus years now.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 05:22:38 PM by vinnie »

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #102 on: January 09, 2014, 07:36:24 PM »

Offline Meadowlark_Scal

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Heyward is a rookie type KID...he is good..but not green's status......so green is not a team leader......hardly ANYONE is...heyward IS NOT GOING TO LEAD THIS TEAM ANYWHERE......GREEN and rondo and one or two more real players.........then we get moving....!!! Another thing..players haven't started covering heyward seriously..yet......because his team sucks.....no threat..!

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #103 on: January 09, 2014, 11:49:28 PM »

Offline vjcsmoke

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Hayward touches the ball so much more because hes one of his teams primary playmakers as well as scorers. Hayward averages 5 assists while green averages 1.6, I think Hayward is the more complete and better player.

Nice pickup there.  Jeff Green is not a very good passer compared to some of our other BBIQ guys like Sully, KO, Rondo, etc.

Then again his job has been to score the ball, so I'm not too worried about that.  If I'm going to spend money in free agency I'd rather go after a potential breakout player such as Lance Stephenson though.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/lance_stephenson/

Re: is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2014, 12:31:39 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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Then I suspect your memory of KG's playoff experience in Minnesota is being colored by all the awesome games he had with the Celtics. At least, to the way I remember it, KG didn't have a really great playoff game (let alone series) until 2004... the Kings game where he went off for like 30 and 20.
It is your memory that is off.  KG's worst playoff series in Minnesota was his second visit to the playoffs in 97-98 and in that series he went for 15.8 p, 9.6 r, 4.0 a, 0.8 s, 2.4 b, with 4.4 t and 3.4 f on 48% from the field and 77.8% from the line.  His first year in the playoffs 96-97 was fairly similar.  After those two series in Minnesota he always averaged a double double and was under 20 points a game just one time (and that year he averaged 8.8 assists per game).  Minnesota didn't win playoff series because they were KG and no one else, not because KG played poorly.

The same way that I wouldn't say that David Lee is a great player because he averages a 20-10, I would hesitate to looking at KG's numbers as the only signifier of "wanting the ball" and "wanting to be the man," which was what the original conversation was about--although, admittedly, it's drifted
At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.