is Gordon Hayward better than Jeff Green?

[BballTim]

Yes.

Defensively, not really, but all around game, Hayward is better.

Mentally, I think he's far ahead of Jeff Green too.

Mentally is indeed where Hayward has a major advantage.

And here come all the responses challenging your right to say Jeff Green is mentally weak in 3-2-1 seconds, because who do you think you are. How do you know what is in the guy's head, are you in the locker room every game, blah blah blah. Jeff Green may have more people making excuses for him than any other player in the history of sports. 

Well how do you know that Hayward is more mentally tough?

  There's a general assumption that players you see every day have many faults but players you see on occasion have few. Kind of like his inconsistency, a trait that wouldn't be noticeable in players that you don't see on a regular basis.

[D.o.s.]

Yes.

Defensively, not really, but all around game, Hayward is better.

Mentally, I think he's far ahead of Jeff Green too.

Mentally is indeed where Hayward has a major advantage.

And here come all the responses challenging your right to say Jeff Green is mentally weak in 3-2-1 seconds, because who do you think you are. How do you know what is in the guy's head, are you in the locker room every game, blah blah blah. Jeff Green may have more people making excuses for him than any other player in the history of sports. 

Well how do you know that Hayward is more mentally tough?

  There's a general assumption that players you see every day have many faults but players you see on occasion have few. Kind of like his inconsistency, a trait that wouldn't be noticeable in players that you don't see on a regular basis.

That's my feeling too--I don't watch Jazz games by choice.

[Celtics4ever]

Who took their teams further in college?

[mmmmm]

Who took their teams further in college?

In college, Green actually developed quite a rep for hitting clutch game-winning shots in several games.   He was a pivotal player in a big upset over top-ranked Duke.  As a junior, Green notably made a clutch game-winner over Vanderbilt to get them to the Final Four, where they lost to Greg Oden's OSU Buckeyes.   

Hayward of course was on Brad Steven's Butler team which made it to the title game which they lost against Duke, with Hayward famously just missing a half-court buzzer beater.

Both received numerous individual awards (Green in the Big East, Hayward in the Horizon  Conference).

Both had the reputation of being being smart, good students.  Hayward majored in computer engineering, though I don't know if he completed his degree yet.  Green kept taking courses at Georgetown during his NBA summers and finished his degree in English with a minor in Theology during his rehab after the heart surgery.

[chambers]

in 100% seriousness, Jeff Green needs some testosterone therapy and some ritalin or some kind of amphetamine medication for ADHD.

Jeff Green has the far superior tools of the two, he's more athletic and physically gifted.

The only thing that's keeping Green from being in serious All Star discussions is his attitude and mental fortitude.
The guy is just plain soft.

[jambr380]

Yes.

Defensively, not really, but all around game, Hayward is better.

Mentally, I think he's far ahead of Jeff Green too.

Mentally is indeed where Hayward has a major advantage.

And here come all the responses challenging your right to say Jeff Green is mentally weak in 3-2-1 seconds, because who do you think you are. How do you know what is in the guy's head, are you in the locker room every game, blah blah blah. Jeff Green may have more people making excuses for him than any other player in the history of sports. 

Well how do you know that Hayward is more mentally tough?

  There's a general assumption that players you see every day have many faults but players you see on occasion have few. Kind of like his inconsistency, a trait that wouldn't be noticeable in players that you don't see on a regular basis.

TP - I agree with this. Jeff Green is put under the ultimate microscope and has been before ever played a second for this Celtics team. I think it is unfair to say that Hayward is clearly the better player when his team is one of the only teams worse than the Cs.

I am sure he is good (although his shooting this year is pretty putrid - not in line with his last three years...yes, this is his fourth year - probably not a lot more 'potential' than Green), but they are both similar players who would play the 3rd fiddle [at best] on any championship team.

[Mazingerz]

YES.

Hayward is far more aggresive and can create his own shot. Green is SOFT. He does not often times want the ball. He only wants it when he has a signficant advantage over his opponent, and when he is at the corner waiting for a corner three.

Hayward is better IMHO than Green.

[D.o.s.]

Who took their teams further in college?

Big Carmelo fan?

How do you feel about Mario Chalmers?

[mmmmm]

in 100% seriousness, Jeff Green needs some testosterone therapy and some ritalin or some kind of amphetamine medication for ADHD.

Jeff Green has the far superior tools of the two, he's more athletic and physically gifted.

The only thing that's keeping Green from being in serious All Star discussions is his attitude and mental fortitude.
The guy is just plain soft.

Right.  How, exactly, are we measuring how "soft" he is?   Do we poke him?

By how many points he scores?   Every one wants him to score more points on a "consistent" basis, right?

What the heck is he supposed to do about that?   He can't score more points if he doesn't get more shots.   He doesn't even get to touch the ball on a huge percentage of our possessions.   He runs down the court, calling for the ball only to watch a guard dribble up to the arc and launch a 3.

I've already shown how the number of shots he takes is pretty clearly in the hands of the point guards on this team.   When on the floor with Pressey (a 'pass first' PG) Green takes a massive 30% more shots (and scores 30% more points) than when on the floor with Crawford (a 'shoot first' PG).    Green's USG rate is just 21% with Crawford.  It is 26% with Pressey.  The latter is closer to what you'd expect with a first-option scorer.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Green's minutes have been on the floor with Crawford, not Pressey.

But the time on the floor with Pressey is proof that the "problem" isn't just within Green's own control.    What other players do (or don't do) matters.

Folks need to stop with the fiction that the team around a player (and the coach) don't have a big say in how a player performs.

If Green were scoring 30% more he'd be averaging 22 points per game.  Would that be "tough" enough?

As long as we continue to run the offense through guys like Crawford (and Bradley was no better when he was running it) though,  Green is not going to get more shots off.

Obviously, we have no idea how it will go with Bayless.  He's at least more of a 'PG' than 'SG', but his assist numbers historically aren't that great.

Or, for that matter, how it will go with Rondo.   But we can imagine that Rondo might pass a little more and shoot a little less.

[Boris Badenov]

Who took their teams further in college?

In college, Green actually developed quite a rep for hitting clutch game-winning shots in several games.   He was a pivotal player in a big upset over top-ranked Duke.  As a junior, Green notably made a clutch game-winner over Vanderbilt to get them to the Final Four, where they lost to Greg Oden's OSU Buckeyes.   

Hayward of course was on Brad Steven's Butler team which made it to the title game which they lost against Duke, with Hayward famously just missing a half-court buzzer beater.

Both received numerous individual awards (Green in the Big East, Hayward in the Horizon  Conference).

Both had the reputation of being being smart, good students.  Hayward majored in computer engineering, though I don't know if he completed his degree yet.  Green kept taking courses at Georgetown during his NBA summers and finished his degree in English with a minor in Theology during his rehab after the heart surgery.

Green's been a good clutch performer in the pros too, at least over the last few years.

I've said this before but he reminds me of Sam Perkins or Horry: sleepy and prone to disappearing, and by no means a reliable go-to guy on a nightly basis - but capable of hitting a big shot when it matters.

He's a perfect 7th man on a championship team IMO.

[chambers]

in 100% seriousness, Jeff Green needs some testosterone therapy and some ritalin or some kind of amphetamine medication for ADHD.

Jeff Green has the far superior tools of the two, he's more athletic and physically gifted.

The only thing that's keeping Green from being in serious All Star discussions is his attitude and mental fortitude.
The guy is just plain soft.

Right.  How, exactly, are we measuring how "soft" he is?   Do we poke him?

By how many points he scores?   Every one wants him to score more points on a "consistent" basis, right?

What the heck is he supposed to do about that?   He can't score more points if he doesn't get more shots.   He doesn't even get to touch the ball on a huge percentage of our possessions.   He runs down the court, calling for the ball only to watch a guard dribble up to the arc and launch a 3.

I've already shown how the number of shots he takes is pretty clearly in the hands of the point guards on this team.   When on the floor with Pressey (a 'pass first' PG) Green takes a massive 30% more shots (and scores 30% more points) than when on the floor with Crawford (a 'shoot first' PG).    Green's USG rate is just 21% with Crawford.  It is 26% with Pressey.  The latter is closer to what you'd expect with a first-option scorer.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Green's minutes have been on the floor with Crawford, not Pressey.

But the time on the floor with Pressey is proof that the "problem" isn't just within Green's own control.    What other players do (or don't do) matters.

Folks need to stop with the fiction that the team around a player (and the coach) don't have a big say in how a player performs.

If Green were scoring 30% more he'd be averaging 22 points per game.  Would that be "tough" enough?

As long as we continue to run the offense through guys like Crawford (and Bradley was no better when he was running it) though,  Green is not going to get more shots off.

Obviously, we have no idea how it will go with Bayless.  He's at least more of a 'PG' than 'SG', but his assist numbers historically aren't that great.

Or, for that matter, how it will go with Rondo.   But we can imagine that Rondo might pass a little more and shoot a little less.

Jeff Green passes up open shots.
Some games he's like a caged gorilla that's been unleashed.
Other games, he's on another planet.
I agree his usage should be higher, and that playing the SF position he needs to get the ball more which is hard with our horrid guard rotation at the moment.
Unfortunately (in my opinion) he doesn't command the ball enough. He talks about being the number one option on this team, but he doesn't demand the ball. He doesn't want to be 'the man' unless he feels like it.
Not that it means much, but my wife is a psychologist and diehard Celtics fan and she agrees. The energy is connected, but not all the lights are running with JG.
Some guys have it, some guys don't.
Of course this is all our own opinion, but I believe a huge test for Jeff will be when Rondo returns and starts giving him the best and easiest passes on the button in the NBA. Will anything change?
Great players WANT the ball. Jeff Green doesn't want the ball. He wants to help Rondo win.
Rondo, KG, Pierce, Ray Allen- they are all killers. They show no mercy and want to be the man.
Jeff Green wants to carry their luggage for them.

[D.o.s.]

in 100% seriousness, Jeff Green needs some testosterone therapy and some ritalin or some kind of amphetamine medication for ADHD.

Jeff Green has the far superior tools of the two, he's more athletic and physically gifted.

The only thing that's keeping Green from being in serious All Star discussions is his attitude and mental fortitude.
The guy is just plain soft.

Right.  How, exactly, are we measuring how "soft" he is?   Do we poke him?

By how many points he scores?   Every one wants him to score more points on a "consistent" basis, right?

What the heck is he supposed to do about that?   He can't score more points if he doesn't get more shots.   He doesn't even get to touch the ball on a huge percentage of our possessions.   He runs down the court, calling for the ball only to watch a guard dribble up to the arc and launch a 3.

I've already shown how the number of shots he takes is pretty clearly in the hands of the point guards on this team.   When on the floor with Pressey (a 'pass first' PG) Green takes a massive 30% more shots (and scores 30% more points) than when on the floor with Crawford (a 'shoot first' PG).    Green's USG rate is just 21% with Crawford.  It is 26% with Pressey.  The latter is closer to what you'd expect with a first-option scorer.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of Green's minutes have been on the floor with Crawford, not Pressey.

But the time on the floor with Pressey is proof that the "problem" isn't just within Green's own control.    What other players do (or don't do) matters.

Folks need to stop with the fiction that the team around a player (and the coach) don't have a big say in how a player performs.

If Green were scoring 30% more he'd be averaging 22 points per game.  Would that be "tough" enough?

As long as we continue to run the offense through guys like Crawford (and Bradley was no better when he was running it) though,  Green is not going to get more shots off.

Obviously, we have no idea how it will go with Bayless.  He's at least more of a 'PG' than 'SG', but his assist numbers historically aren't that great.

Or, for that matter, how it will go with Rondo.   But we can imagine that Rondo might pass a little more and shoot a little less.

Jeff Green passes up open shots.
Some games he's like a caged gorilla that's been unleashed.
Other games, he's on another planet.
I agree his usage should be higher, and that playing the SF position he needs to get the ball more which is hard with our horrid guard rotation at the moment.
Unfortunately (in my opinion) he doesn't command the ball enough. He talks about being the number one option on this team, but he doesn't demand the ball. He doesn't want to be 'the man' unless he feels like it.
Not that it means much, but my wife is a psychologist and diehard Celtics fan and she agrees. The energy is connected, but not all the lights are running with JG.
Some guys have it, some guys don't.
Of course this is all our own opinion, but I believe a huge test for Jeff will be when Rondo returns and starts giving him the best and easiest passes on the button in the NBA. Will anything change?
Great players WANT the ball. Jeff Green doesn't want the ball. He wants to help Rondo win.
Rondo, KG, Pierce, Ray Allen- they are all killers. They show no mercy and want to be the man.
Jeff Green wants to carry their luggage for them.

What is, "Chambers never watched Kevin Garnett when he played for the Timberwolves," Trebek.

The big knock on KG before he came to the Celtics was that, for all his insanity, he was a shirking violet "when it really mattered," "when the game was on the line," or "when the real leaders step up." Pick your empty sports platitude about shying away from the moment, and KG got hit with it while he was in the frozen tundra of Minnesota.

[BballTim]

  I'm not sure (didn't read the whole thread) how many stats are in this thread. Here's basketballreference's comparison of the two players: http://bkref.com/tiny/fE4qV . Those seem to show Green as the better scorer and Hayward as the more versatile player. If you look at their game logs, in terms of scoring, Green's had 6 games where he scored 9 or less, 22 where he scored 10-19 and 7 games where he scored 20 or more. Hayward's had 5 games where he scored 9 or less, 20 where he scored 10-19 and 12 of 20 or more. So Hayward's scored a little more, but I'm not sure which player's that much more consistent.

  In terms of aggressiveness and shot creation on offense, it's also close to a wash. Hayward takes about 1/2 a shot more per36 and his usage is slightly higher (24.1 to 22.6). According to 82games 54% of Green's baskets are assisted compared to 52% for Hayward. Hayward has  fewer of his shots at the rim assisted but Green takes a higher percentage of his shots at the rim.

  If you compare their synergy numbers Green has a solid advantage. He has an advantage in ppp (.96 to .86 which is a decent sized difference). Green scores more efficiently than Hayward in isolation, post up, spot up, cutting and coming off of screens. Hayward's advantages are pick and roll and putbacks. If you look at their defensive numbers Green has a sizeable advantage (.8 to .94, or 68th in the league compared to 283rd).

  You could look at the numbers and choose either as better than the other but it would be fairly close. One advantage Hayward has over Green in this discussion is having one of his best games of the year (28/9/5) against the Celtics earlier this year.

 

[LooseCannon]

If Green is a more efficient scorer and a better defender, he may be a better fit for the system that Brad Stevens is trying to create.

[Celtics4ever]

If Green is a more efficient scorer and a better defender, he may be a better fit for the system that Brad Stevens is trying to create.

I doubt it given Hayward played for him at Butler. 

I don't think Green feels comfortable ever unless he is playing OKC, MIA or the like.   He seems really in those games and plays well.  Green has more talent athletically but he just doesn't always bring his A game every night.   He is happy to bring his C or B game some nights.  Not the mark of a great one.  Hayward is much more consistent night in and night out but he doesn't have as much potential in a big game.  I realize he just had 37 against OKC.   The least he scored is 7 points in a game this year.


http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/4249/gordon-hayward

Green on the other hand has had a 4 point game and 2  5 point games.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/splits/_/id/3209/jeff-green