Gut feeling Rondo will be on a plane to Houston for Asik before the deadline

[BballTim]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

I wouldn't say that Rondo was our best player in 2010. I think flatly saying so discredits KG and Pierce, who often times during those playoffs were our best player. I think all took turns in being our best player.

In 2012, we got lucky. We avoided Chicago in the 2nd rd and that's the truth of the matter. A healthy Rose means we don't get far. So assuming teams are healthy, again that's always the biggest variable, having Rondo as your best player means the odds are long that you'll advance deep into the playoffs. Now, if Rondo is "sometimes" your best player like in 2010, and the rest of the core guys are of similar quality as KG and Pierce of 2010, then yes, we can go far.

  No player is the best player on his team every minute of every game. The Celts and Heat and Bulls were all dealing with injuries in 2012, you can speculate all you want about who would have won if everyone was healthy but that's all it is. Bottom line, we went deep in the playoffs twice in three years with Rondo as our best player and that third year we were in the 2nd round when he had his elbow dislocated. Claiming that the odds are long that we'd go far with Rondo is almost as ridiculous as claiming that having Rondo as your best player means early playoff exits when it never has in the past.

  As for KG in 2010, if you remember that far back he was recovering from his knee injury that year. 14/7 during the season, 15/7 during the playoffs. Not on any all-defense teams, not really considered for all-nba teams. Finished (IIRC) 20th in Rebs/game in the playoffs and got fewer rebounds in the nba finals than his team's point guard. Players on that level might not grow on trees but they aren't impossible to find.

KG was playing 33 mpg during the playoffs and the value he brought to our team far exceeded anything that can be calculated by stats.

  Rondo also brings value to our team that far exceeds anything that can be measured by stats. As for KG, that was probably his worst postseason in Boston. If he'd played close to the level he was at in 2012 (2 years older) it's hard to see the Lakers having a chance against us. It's not really a knock on KG to state that his play when he was recovering from a knee injury wasn't his best.

At the end of the day, the argument is pretty simple. If you have a top 10 player then he can lead your team deep into the playoffs. If you don't, then things will have to break extremely well (2012 for example) in order to get passed the second round.

  We lost two players to heart surgery in 2012, our starting sg was ineffective in the playoffs until he had to stop playing altogether because of his shoulders, our backup sg was hobbling around on bad ankles, our only viable backup big had plantar fascitis and Pierce was dealing with a sprained MCL. Yep, it's pretty hard to imagine things breaking any better than that.

However, that's a question you always dodge. You love bringing numbers into an argument, but I've yet to get your opinion on where you rank Rondo. Is he top 5? Top 10? Top 20? Hopefully you rank him as highly as you speak of him.

  In the playoffs, when he's healthy, he's probably top 5, at worst top 10. In the regular season he'd probably be somewhat lower than that, but that's a fluid situation and players are up and down. But in the postseason he definitely fits your "top 10" bill, that's why he's been able to lead the team deep into the playoffs multiple times.

[TheFlex]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

If you use the injury excuse for the Celtics (Pierce, Bradley, Ray hobbled, Green, Wilcox, Steamer out) you have to apply it to other teams. The Hawks were without Horford for much of the first round and gave us trouble when he played. Rose (defending MVP) was out for 2/3 of the Bulls season if not more. Some of Miami's stars had the same type of injuries as Pierce and Ray Allen, who suffered our worst injuries despite never being out. Also, if you bring up the point that Rondo wasn't the cause for our loss to the Heat, you're implying that the cause was our injuries, which means that without injuries we would have gone to the Finals. In such an unlikely case, beating the Hawks, Bulls and Heat, would the Cs beat a healthy Thunder? Doubt it.

[BballTim]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

If you use the injury excuse for the Celtics (Pierce, Bradley, Ray hobbled, Green, Wilcox, Steamer out) you have to apply it to other teams. The Hawks were without Horford for much of the first round and gave us trouble when he played. Rose (defending MVP) was out for 2/3 of the Bulls season if not more. Some of Miami's stars had the same type of injuries as Pierce and Ray Allen, who suffered our worst injuries despite never being out. Also, if you bring up the point that Rondo wasn't the cause for our loss to the Heat, you're implying that the cause was our injuries, which means that without injuries we would have gone to the Finals. In such an unlikely case, beating the Hawks, Bulls and Heat, would the Cs beat a healthy Thunder? Doubt it.

  Yes, everybody knows that other teams had injuries too that postseason. I never said that the Celts were the only team that suffered injuries, but all the people who claim that the Celts were lucky to have played teams with injured players. They weren't any luckier than anyone else that year. How a healthy Celts team would have fared against a healthy Thunder was anyone's guess, they weren't exactly unbeatable. And how exactly do you think that Rondo (21/7/11) was the cause of our loss to the Heat?

[D.o.s.]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

Well then we clearly can't win a championship with Rajon Rondo as our best player, an idea born out by the corollary, but not causal, fact that every year he has been, we haven't won.

[BballTim]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

Well then we clearly can't win a championship with Rajon Rondo as our best player, an idea born out by the corollary, but not causal, fact that every year he has been, we haven't won.

  Yes, if there's one thing you'll learn if you spend enough time here, if something hasn't already happened in the nba the odds of it happening in the future are remote at best.

[D.o.s.]

On the other hand, I think that a player like Rondo would be best served by playing with a guy like Carmelo (merging threads!). And vice versa. It almost makes too much sense.

A pity I don't think it'll ever happen.

[SHAQATTACK]

Never happen Asik for Rondo.......that would defeat the purpose of rebuild.....Omar is not that special of a player.  Cousins maybe ,  not Asik.

Wallace, Bass, Lee, Hump, Brooks , Crawford, .......possibly Fav  combo. For Asik

Danny  has no intention of trading new found gems Sully and KO . Or his best two draft picks.

Danny has to unload all the Nets Garbage first......too much money tied up in junk players

[LarBrd33]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

I wouldn't say that Rondo was our best player in 2010. I think flatly saying so discredits KG and Pierce, who often times during those playoffs were our best player. I think all took turns in being our best player.

In 2012, we got lucky. We avoided Chicago in the 2nd rd and that's the truth of the matter. A healthy Rose means we don't get far. So assuming teams are healthy, again that's always the biggest variable, having Rondo as your best player means the odds are long that you'll advance deep into the playoffs. Now, if Rondo is "sometimes" your best player like in 2010, and the rest of the core guys are of similar quality as KG and Pierce of 2010, then yes, we can go far.

  No player is the best player on his team every minute of every game. The Celts and Heat and Bulls were all dealing with injuries in 2012, you can speculate all you want about who would have won if everyone was healthy but that's all it is. Bottom line, we went deep in the playoffs twice in three years with Rondo as our best player and that third year we were in the 2nd round when he had his elbow dislocated. Claiming that the odds are long that we'd go far with Rondo is almost as ridiculous as claiming that having Rondo as your best player means early playoff exits when it never has in the past.

  As for KG in 2010, if you remember that far back he was recovering from his knee injury that year. 14/7 during the season, 15/7 during the playoffs. Not on any all-defense teams, not really considered for all-nba teams. Finished (IIRC) 20th in Rebs/game in the playoffs and got fewer rebounds in the nba finals than his team's point guard. Players on that level might not grow on trees but they aren't impossible to find.

KG was playing 33 mpg during the playoffs and the value he brought to our team far exceeded anything that can be calculated by stats.

  Rondo also brings value to our team that far exceeds anything that can be measured by stats. As for KG, that was probably his worst postseason in Boston. If he'd played close to the level he was at in 2012 (2 years older) it's hard to see the Lakers having a chance against us. It's not really a knock on KG to state that his play when he was recovering from a knee injury wasn't his best.

At the end of the day, the argument is pretty simple. If you have a top 10 player then he can lead your team deep into the playoffs. If you don't, then things will have to break extremely well (2012 for example) in order to get passed the second round.

  We lost two players to heart surgery in 2012, our starting sg was ineffective in the playoffs until he had to stop playing altogether because of his shoulders, our backup sg was hobbling around on bad ankles, our only viable backup big had plantar fascitis and Pierce was dealing with a sprained MCL. Yep, it's pretty hard to imagine things breaking any better than that.

However, that's a question you always dodge. You love bringing numbers into an argument, but I've yet to get your opinion on where you rank Rondo. Is he top 5? Top 10? Top 20? Hopefully you rank him as highly as you speak of him.

  In the playoffs, when he's healthy, he's probably top 5, at worst top 10. In the regular season he'd probably be somewhat lower than that, but that's a fluid situation and players are up and down. But in the postseason he definitely fits your "top 10" bill, that's why he's been able to lead the team deep into the playoffs multiple times.

Tim, do we get to stop pretending Rondo is a "top 5-10 player" once Boston misses the playoffs this season?... or does he remain a theoretical "top 5-10 player" if his team teeters between lottery and first round exits for the next 5 years?

Rondo is a top 10 PG.  Probably a top 30-40 player.  He's darn good.  Obsessing over his playoff stats is much ado about nothing.  So much of it had to do with matchups, obscene minutes and the fact that he had elite teammates.  Boston was an elite team that made deep playoff runs.  Rondo was part of it.  I agree he torched Mario Chalmers.  Torching Mario Chalmers doesn't necessarily negate the fact that 90% of the time he's merely a Top 10 PG.

[Eddie20]

My gut tells me that it is more likely Rondo is the top player on the Celtics for the next five seasons.  It also tells me I want a sandwich.

I really hope not. Not that I don't want him on our team, but if he's the best player we have then it'll be early  playoff exits at best.

  Yes, just like in 2010 and 2012. Notice, just for fun, that the two earliest playoff exits of the 2008-2013 KG era Celts were the year without Rondo and the year Rondo suffered a serious injury in the playoffs.

In 2010, LA dared Rondo to shoot the whole series, which cost us dearly. In 2012, we beat an Atlanta team, that was missing Horford, and then we avoided Chicago because of Rose's injury, and went 7 vs Philly. Again, if Rondo is our best player we aren't going to go that far.I realize your Rondo's unofficial spokesman, so I expect nothing more than an elaborate response detailing the greatness of Rondo in 3...2...1...

  Rondo didn't have his best series against LA in 2010 (he wasn't at his healthiest) and we still probably would have won that series if Perk didn't blow out his knee. In 2012 we didn't have Green or Wilcox or any shooting guard that was healthy enough to play halfway decently. Rondo was our best player, and we did go that far. Claiming we can't win in the playoffs with Rondo as our best player is like claiming he could never lead the league in assists. You've already been proven wrong.

I wouldn't say that Rondo was our best player in 2010. I think flatly saying so discredits KG and Pierce, who often times during those playoffs were our best player. I think all took turns in being our best player.

In 2012, we got lucky. We avoided Chicago in the 2nd rd and that's the truth of the matter. A healthy Rose means we don't get far. So assuming teams are healthy, again that's always the biggest variable, having Rondo as your best player means the odds are long that you'll advance deep into the playoffs. Now, if Rondo is "sometimes" your best player like in 2010, and the rest of the core guys are of similar quality as KG and Pierce of 2010, then yes, we can go far.

  No player is the best player on his team every minute of every game. The Celts and Heat and Bulls were all dealing with injuries in 2012, you can speculate all you want about who would have won if everyone was healthy but that's all it is. Bottom line, we went deep in the playoffs twice in three years with Rondo as our best player and that third year we were in the 2nd round when he had his elbow dislocated. Claiming that the odds are long that we'd go far with Rondo is almost as ridiculous as claiming that having Rondo as your best player means early playoff exits when it never has in the past.

  As for KG in 2010, if you remember that far back he was recovering from his knee injury that year. 14/7 during the season, 15/7 during the playoffs. Not on any all-defense teams, not really considered for all-nba teams. Finished (IIRC) 20th in Rebs/game in the playoffs and got fewer rebounds in the nba finals than his team's point guard. Players on that level might not grow on trees but they aren't impossible to find.

KG was playing 33 mpg during the playoffs and the value he brought to our team far exceeded anything that can be calculated by stats.

  Rondo also brings value to our team that far exceeds anything that can be measured by stats. As for KG, that was probably his worst postseason in Boston. If he'd played close to the level he was at in 2012 (2 years older) it's hard to see the Lakers having a chance against us. It's not really a knock on KG to state that his play when he was recovering from a knee injury wasn't his best.

At the end of the day, the argument is pretty simple. If you have a top 10 player then he can lead your team deep into the playoffs. If you don't, then things will have to break extremely well (2012 for example) in order to get passed the second round.

  We lost two players to heart surgery in 2012, our starting sg was ineffective in the playoffs until he had to stop playing altogether because of his shoulders, our backup sg was hobbling around on bad ankles, our only viable backup big had plantar fascitis and Pierce was dealing with a sprained MCL. Yep, it's pretty hard to imagine things breaking any better than that.

However, that's a question you always dodge. You love bringing numbers into an argument, but I've yet to get your opinion on where you rank Rondo. Is he top 5? Top 10? Top 20? Hopefully you rank him as highly as you speak of him.

  In the playoffs, when he's healthy, he's probably top 5, at worst top 10. In the regular season he'd probably be somewhat lower than that, but that's a fluid situation and players are up and down. But in the postseason he definitely fits your "top 10" bill, that's why he's been able to lead the team deep into the playoffs multiple times.

Tim, do we get to stop pretending Rondo is a "top 5-10 player" once Boston misses the playoffs this season?... or does he remain a theoretical "top 5-10 player" if his team teeters between lottery and first round exits for the next 5 years?

Rondo is a top 10 PG.  Probably a top 30-40 player.  He's darn good.  Obsessing over his playoff stats is much ado about nothing.  So much of it had to do with matchups, obscene minutes and the fact that he had elite teammates.  Boston was an elite team that made deep playoff runs.  Rondo was part of it.  I agree he torched Mario Chalmers.  Torching Mario Chalmers doesn't necessarily negate the fact that 90% of the time he's merely a Top 10 PG.

Exactly. I see him as top 10 PG too, and there is nothing wrong with that. Eventually though, Tim is going to have to stop using what happened in mid-2010 as a reference point since we're only about 45 days away from 2014.

Tim's mindset-

Rondo plays poorly = Rondo's hurt
Celtics play poorly and underachieve = It's his teammates fault
Rondo gets suspended = It's the refs fault
Rumors of Rondo being "difficult" = False reports trying to smear his reputation
Rumors of Rondo being shopped = False reports trying to devalue him

[playdream]

top 10 PG in regular season, top5 in playoff
Rondo is too inconsistent and(in order to pass)he dominate the ball

[Celtics4ever]

Rondo plays with on arm = Rondo is tougher than hell.

[ManUp]

Your gut is wrong.

[Chemistry]

Is there such a thing as a neutral NBA fan? I have to say I find the valuations of players by fans of different teams to be quite interesting.

The discussion of Asik + x for Rondo is happening on the Rocket's forum too, so I thought I'd give you guys some perspective of how Rockets' fans see it.

On Rondo:

There is some division. While a lot of fans would love to have Rondo, some are concerned that he is too much of a headcase and his ego would clash with Harden's and Dwight's. There are also concerns that Rondo is a poor jump shooter, and needs the ball in his hands, which is exactly what Harden needs also. On the plus side, there is the opinion that Rondo would do a great job of finding both Harden and Dwight and the rest of the role players in good spots, getting them lots of easy buckets. He would also make a huge difference to the Rocket's weak perimetre defense.

On Asik:

 Most Rockets' fans are quite upset with his agitating for a move as they feel it will lower his value. Asik seems to be underrated on here. Rockets' fans would rate him close to a top 10 ten starting centre in the league. His stats don't show what a great defensive presence he is. Some fans would argue that he was more important to the Rockets reaching the playoffs last season than Harden. For example one can look at K-mart's scoring this season (who the rockets traded for Harden), but it's very hard to find dependable defensive centres like Asik. Asik's main weakness is his poor hands catching the ball on offense, but that's something that would improve with coaching.

On Lin

I think this is a perfect example of people not knowing about players on other teams. Lin had a poor start to last season, though according to Morey and Mchale this was down to him still not being 100% back from injury while having to learn a new role, playing off the ball, after Houston got Harden.

Lin's post ASB numbers are actually quite decent:

15 points 6 assists 2 rebounds 1 steal over 27 games.

Shooting 47% and 38% on threes.

They would look even better if you left out the playoffs. In the playoffs, the entire Rockets' team had a terrible game 1. In game 2 Lin was injured. He remained injured throughout. You could see that even when he played in later games, he was unable to lift his right arm without considerable discomfort.

He has worked on his game a lot in the off season and that shows in his current start.

This season after 11 games he is averaging:

18 points, 5 assists, on 52% shooting and 44% from three. This is off the bench as a 3rd option on roughly 33 minutes/night. Rockets fans this season see him as a 18/20 PPG player with a 40% 3 point shot (assuming he can't keep up the kind of shooting he's had thus far) playing next to a ball dominant guard in Harden. It's hard to know how many assists he would get as the primary ball handler on another team.

Interestingly :

In the 5 games he has played for the #Rockets w/o James Harden, Jeremy Lin is averaging 24.0 points on 47.4% FG (17-29 3P) and 8.0 assists.

Lin is also an underrated defender.

So... summary:

Rockets fans would be okay with a trade of Asik + bev + dmo and maybe a pick for Rondo. They would prefer to keep Lin who they see as having a lot of potential and currently the Rockets' most efficient scorer this season.

They would be split on a Lin + Asik for Rondo trade, which goes to show the disparity between fans in rating the players on their team. Though I think in the end most fans would go for it.

My opinion is that Rondo + filler for Lin + Asik + Dmo + pick would be ideal/fair to both teams.

However, both Asik and Lin are winners, you guys would win a lot of games post ASB with them and that will hurt your pick.

Just some food for thought.

[BballTim]

Tim, do we get to stop pretending Rondo is a "top 5-10 player" once Boston misses the playoffs this season?

  Yes, I'd say that judging Rondo's place in the nba hierarchy based on his ability to get a team (that you've claimed ad nauseam doesn't have the talent to compete) to the playoffs when he's missing much of the season and trying to come back from knee surgery is pretty much par for the course for you.

Rondo is a top 10 PG.  Probably a top 30-40 player.  He's darn good.  Obsessing over his playoff stats is much ado about nothing.  So much of it had to do with matchups, obscene minutes and the fact that he had elite teammates.  Boston was an elite team that made deep playoff runs.  Rondo was part of it.  I agree he torched Mario Chalmers.  Torching Mario Chalmers doesn't necessarily negate the fact that 90% of the time he's merely a Top 10 PG.

  You can say "Mario Chalmers" all you want when you're trying to bash Rondo's accomplishments. Miami was one of the best defenses in the league that year and allowed about the lowest PER for opposing point guards in the league that year. I'm sure your slights sound much more impressive if you're blissfully unaware of this.

[csfansince60s]

Is there such a thing as a neutral NBA fan? I have to say I find the valuations of players by fans of different teams to be quite interesting.

The discussion of Asik + x for Rondo is happening on the Rocket's forum too, so I thought I'd give you guys some perspective of how Rockets' fans see it.

On Rondo:

There is some division. While a lot of fans would love to have Rondo, some are concerned that he is too much of a headcase and his ego would clash with Harden's and Dwight's. There are also concerns that Rondo is a poor jump shooter, and needs the ball in his hands, which is exactly what Harden needs also. On the plus side, there is the opinion that Rondo would do a great job of finding both Harden and Dwight and the rest of the role players in good spots, getting them lots of easy buckets. He would also make a huge difference to the Rocket's weak perimetre defense.

On Asik:

 Most Rockets' fans are quite upset with his agitating for a move as they feel it will lower his value. Asik seems to be underrated on here. Rockets' fans would rate him close to a top 10 ten starting centre in the league. His stats don't show what a great defensive presence he is. Some fans would argue that he was more important to the Rockets reaching the playoffs last season than Harden. For example one can look at K-mart's scoring this season (who the rockets traded for Harden), but it's very hard to find dependable defensive centres like Asik. Asik's main weakness is his poor hands catching the ball on offense, but that's something that would improve with coaching.

On Lin

I think this is a perfect example of people not knowing about players on other teams. Lin had a poor start to last season, though according to Morey and Mchale this was down to him still not being 100% back from injury while having to learn a new role, playing off the ball, after Houston got Harden.

Lin's post ASB numbers are actually quite decent:

15 points 6 assists 2 rebounds 1 steal over 27 games.

Shooting 47% and 38% on threes.

They would look even better if you left out the playoffs. In the playoffs, the entire Rockets' team had a terrible game 1. In game 2 Lin was injured. He remained injured throughout. You could see that even when he played in later games, he was unable to lift his right arm without considerable discomfort.

He has worked on his game a lot in the off season and that shows in his current start.

This season after 11 games he is averaging:

18 points, 5 assists, on 52% shooting and 44% from three. This is off the bench as a 3rd option on roughly 33 minutes/night. Rockets fans this season see him as a 18/20 PPG player with a 40% 3 point shot (assuming he can't keep up the kind of shooting he's had thus far) playing next to a ball dominant guard in Harden. It's hard to know how many assists he would get as the primary ball handler on another team.

Interestingly :

In the 5 games he has played for the #Rockets w/o James Harden, Jeremy Lin is averaging 24.0 points on 47.4% FG (17-29 3P) and 8.0 assists.

Lin is also an underrated defender.

So... summary:

Rockets fans would be okay with a trade of Asik + bev + dmo and maybe a pick for Rondo. They would prefer to keep Lin who they see as having a lot of potential and currently the Rockets' most efficient scorer this season.

They would be split on a Lin + Asik for Rondo trade, which goes to show the disparity between fans in rating the players on their team. Though I think in the end most fans would go for it.

My opinion is that Rondo + filler for Lin + Asik + Dmo + pick would be ideal/fair to both teams.

However, both Asik and Lin are winners, you guys would win a lot of games post ASB with them and that will hurt your pick.

Just some food for thought.

TP for your first post and welcome to celticsblog.

I like your reasoning and feel your post is written in an objective light.