Author Topic: Starting Point Guard thru December?  (Read 26496 times)

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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2013, 07:45:56 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Bradley at point guard . . . best playmaker in the lineup will be Lee.

This team might not average more than 85 points a game.

Well, if they don't give up more than 80 ... welcome to Butler Ball, NBA-style!

If a team anchored by Kris Humphries and Vitor Faverani holds opponents to 80 points, I will have to seriously question everything I thought I knew about basketball.
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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2013, 03:21:39 PM »

Offline Eric M VAN

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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2013, 04:03:13 PM »

Offline cons

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didn't they play AB at point in the playoffs last year and he totally bombed?
I think i remember several times where they could barely get the ball over half court.


reg season may be different but I thought this was an established thing - he was unable to play point against real defense.

in general he was invisible that whole series I think until like the second half of the last game. then he made a spurt but it was too late.


based on that i'm really not optimistic about him as our pg in nov, but reg season is diff then playoffs and what other options do they really have i guess..

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2013, 04:31:17 PM »

Offline 2short

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What are the choices if Rondo isn't able to start the season? Pressey and Bradley?

I think I would be saying that Bradley is the starter at PG until Rondo gets back too, if those are my only choices. Its not like this roster is loaded down with floor generals that can handle the ball, run an offense, bring the ball up and guard NBA quality starting PGs.

And please, I don't want to hear Pressey can do it because from what I saw in Summer League, he is a major work in progress.
agree on pressey he looks like a project who might be able to get minor minutes at backup pg once rondo is back
if pressey can cut down on turnovers mind you

I'd rather see Lee handling the ball.  To me as long as the ball is over mid court we can get into offensive sets (if there is no fast break chance).  It can be KO bringing the ball up at center position!

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2013, 04:36:22 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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Neither Ainge nor DJ were "assist" masters. But between them they got the ball over half court (it was a little dicey for Ainge sometimes...)and they initiated the offense.

Bird initiated a lot of the offense on the break or in the half court.

While having a guy like Rondo is a nice luxury, this team could be similar even when Rondo returns. Bradley Green can certainly initiate the break in certain situations and Olynyk could do a lot of facilitating in the half court sets.



Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2013, 04:38:49 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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The ;point of that post, was I would be fine with Bradley at the point until Rondo comes back - it is probably the best overall option right now.

He appears to be in our long term plans and therefore whether it's at the point or the two, continuing to get him minutes for his overall growth should be emphasized - certainly at the expense of Crawford...

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2013, 04:43:50 PM »

Offline 2short

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how about this?
lee pg
brooks sg
starting lineup, lee is a very good defender with a good enough handle and can hit the outside shots
brooks is a shooter and this gives a good sized starting lineup
bradley comes in and the defense gets better with he and lee paired up, this would give ample time to lee and brooks to either improve/get into a groove or at the least showcase either guy for a future trade

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2013, 05:08:38 PM »

Offline ScoobyDoo

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If it's to showcase Lee for a mid season trade I guess I'd be Ok with that.

My only problem with Lee is I just don't see him as a long term starter at either guard position - but a very good back up as part of your rotation - so I'd rather play guys who are either projected as long term possible starters at the two (Bradley) or who have the potential to be (Brooks).

But I get your point if it is to showcase Lee for a mid season trade and cant' say I wouldn't do that if I thought it would help accomplish that goal. 

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2013, 05:21:25 PM »

Offline Eric M VAN

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I'm a bit surprised this at myself but the numbers I just looked at in the link I published above, say Bradley is possibly the WORST choice on this team to fill in at PG.

There a few caveats because of Bradley's injury, inexperience etc, but his performance has been his performance and his game (statistically) just doesn't lend to him playing the position.

His assists/TO % are abysmal, he can't hasn't shown an ability to create shots for himself or others.

Don't get me wrong, I like they guy, but not as a PG from what I'm seeing.
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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2013, 06:51:20 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I'm a bit surprised this at myself but the numbers I just looked at in the link I published above, say Bradley is possibly the WORST choice on this team to fill in at PG.

There a few caveats because of Bradley's injury, inexperience etc, but his performance has been his performance and his game (statistically) just doesn't lend to him playing the position.

His assists/TO % are abysmal, he can't hasn't shown an ability to create shots for himself or others.

Don't get me wrong, I like they guy, but not as a PG from what I'm seeing.

LOL - here I am - a tried and convicted, 'stats guy' - to say:  "Stats don't mean xxxxx!"  and "Try watching the games with your eyes!!!"

More specifically, that article is, imho, once again simply a very poor usage of statistics.

I'm not saying that Bradley might not be 'the worst' choice to fill in at PG.  But that analysis in that article is pretty much useless to me if I want to ask that question.

Measurement without a normalized context is not very useful.   None of the numbers used in that 'analysis' have a normalized context and they are from very small samples.   Remarking that Bradley falls far from the prototypical PG in Adrien's 'cluster' analysis is silly.   Bradley last year was only playing 'PG' in that he was bringing the ball up.   He was almost never initiating the offense and not in a role to generate assists.  Heck, even in his SG role, his expectations have been quite different from what is expected of other SGs.   Last year overall was just a bizarre, twisted tale of make-shift, changing lineups with lots of our players being asked to do things they weren't expected to do.

The are just a ton of extraneous factors that make that sort of linear comparison silly.  Aside from the injuries and lack of training camp and 'inserted into a new role' issues, there are larger issues of what the team is trying to do in development of each of these players and where each player is in his development.

Folks have a tendency to forget that Bradley is still only 22 years old, with only portions of his three seasons under his belt.  He's too young and too untried to really say whether he can or can't do certain things.  To Ainge and Stevens, he represents a lot of raw athletic potential that they want to mold.  They are going to push him through their process and see if he can be shaped to become what they want.   They aren't going to NOT do that just because, at the moment, a player like Jordan Crawford might look like he has better PG skills-related stats.   Jordan Crawford is two years older and they know who he is.

When Bradley was in H.S., he was often the primary initiator of his team's offense.  He was good at that. Rated neck & neck with John Wall as the top 2 players in the nation.

Here are a couple of scouting comments from his performance at the National Prep Showcase (absolute top H.S players in the nation) in the fall of his senior year:
Quote
Avery Bradley (#10 Scout, #8 Rivals, #15 ESPN) was hands down the top performer here at the National Prep Showcase, willing his team to a 2-0 record while putting up gaudy numbers in the meantime.

and:

Quote
The Washington native is an absolute nightmare to guard offensively. The bread and butter of his game centers around his pull-up mid-range jumper, which he can create and get off at will. Capable of stopping on the drop of a dime, he gets outstanding elevation with a high release point on his pull-up. When combined with his great first step, he is able to get defenders back on their feet with his strong initial drive, and then rise up before they are able to even contest his jumper.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2fwlzCONN
http://www.draftexpress.com

And then, at the end of his senior year, he was still getting similar accolades.  This one is from the ESPN RISE National High School Invitational:
Quote
After a weekend in which he dominated some of the top teams in the country, Avery Bradley (#10 Scout, #8 Rivals, #1 ESPN) has recently risen to the number one spot on ESPN's rankings of the class of 2009. Having already been scouted extensively by DraftExpress at several other events this year, this write up will be short.

The future Texas Longhorn had all of his weapons on display this past weekend in Maryland. He scored a tournament high 27 points in his second game of the tournament, doing the bulk of his damage with his stellar mid-range game. Bradley is extremely difficult to cover due to his excellent quickness, but also because of his ability to stop on a dime and elevate with a smooth shooting stroke. The McDonald's All-American dunk champion was able to get out in transition and wow the crowd a couple of times during the course of his three games with several impressive throw-downs.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com#ixzz2fwmvUBTH
http://www.draftexpress.com

So Bradley clearly showed potential to be a 'play creator' and offensive go-to guy back then.  He wasn't being scouted as just a pure defensive player.

However, when he was at Texas, he was basically told to stay outside and shoot from the perimeter and play D.   He was mediocre at the former, but terrific at the latter.  His offensive numbers were kinda lame.  He declared for the draft anyway and so he fell all the way to #19 where we got him.   He also injured his ankle in a pre-draft workout and so ended up missing training camp and sitting on the bench for much of his rookie year. 

During that year, though, he did go spend 9 games with the Red Claws in Maine.   During that stretch, when he got a solid 32+ mpg, he was once again used more like he was in High School:  as a primary offensive weapon, including play initiator.  His pace-adjusted points and assist numbers during that stretch were almost twice anything he posted at Texas or with the Celics (yes, even better than Bradley was in 2011-12).

So, there have been some small stretches (H.S., D-League) where Bradley was asked to play a more commanding role on offense and he has shown flashes of brilliance.  Those have been, of course, at lower competitive levels (though against a lot of guys who are now in the Association).   He has not been asked yet to really do that at the NBA level.   We don't really know if he can do it at this level yet.

Hopefully, he can stay healthy this year and we will find out.  He may fail.  But the Celtics need to find out before they decide how much to pay him.

And yeah, I know, some very vocal fans on this blog like to insist that they can already 'see it' that he can't and never will and assert so loudly and often.  But Danny & Co probably have seen a bit more of Bradley than we have and they will be the final judges.
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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2013, 07:12:37 PM »

Offline 2short

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If it's to showcase Lee for a mid season trade I guess I'd be Ok with that.

My only problem with Lee is I just don't see him as a long term starter at either guard position - but a very good back up as part of your rotation - so I'd rather play guys who are either projected as long term possible starters at the two (Bradley) or who have the potential to be (Brooks).

But I get your point if it is to showcase Lee for a mid season trade and cant' say I wouldn't do that if I thought it would help accomplish that goal.
I like lee as a first guard off bench but last season he didn't play that well as a sub.  If hecan give us consistancy off the bench in a combo role great.  I am still waiting to see how "the duel" plays out with the rotation of lee, Bradley, brooks, hogans And Crawford.  I would love to move Crawford.  Bogans I am fine with as a tough vet who doesn't need minutes but would play well when called on ala scal.  If brooks can put it together what a great piece he will be!  Besides rondo I would be fine with trading any of these guys for the right deal.  If a package of one of our power forwards with one of these guards can net us someone good I'm all for it 

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2013, 08:03:24 PM »

Offline Eric M VAN

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I'm a bit surprised this at myself but the numbers I just looked at in the link I published above, say Bradley is possibly the WORST choice on this team to fill in at PG.

There a few caveats because of Bradley's injury, inexperience etc, but his performance has been his performance and his game (statistically) just doesn't lend to him playing the position.

His assists/TO % are abysmal, he can't hasn't shown an ability to create shots for himself or others.

Don't get me wrong, I like they guy, but not as a PG from what I'm seeing.

LOL - here I am - a tried and convicted, 'stats guy' - to say:  "Stats don't mean xxxxx!"  and "Try watching the games with your eyes!!!"

More specifically, that article is, imho, once again simply a very poor usage of statistics.

I'm not saying that Bradley might not be 'the worst' choice to fill in at PG.  But that analysis in that article is pretty much useless to me if I want to ask that question.

<removed a lot of stuff>


Hey, I always go with your interpretation when it comes to stats, but regardless of how you feel about his methodology, what statistical info would you trot out that makes Bradley a good, or even acceptable band aid for the PG position vs Crawford or Lee?

I hear what you're saying but do you think his conclusions are wrong or do you just not like how he got to them?

Do you think the 9 games he played in the D-League and how he played in high school are a better barometer of how he'll perform in the NBA than how he's actually performed in 145 games in the NBA and a year of college?

He's just been mis-coached or under utilized and has been just waiting for the right situation to show he's now an adequate PG?

I'm seriously confused, are you just being contrarian (fellow grouchy old man  ;) )
« Last Edit: September 26, 2013, 01:31:30 AM by Eric M VAN »
"Because there are no fours."
-- Antoine Walker when asked why he shoots so many threes

"We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees."
-Jason Kidd


Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2013, 08:17:19 PM »

Offline gpap

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I'm a bit surprised this at myself but the numbers I just looked at in the link I published above, say Bradley is possibly the WORST choice on this team to fill in at PG.

There a few caveats because of Bradley's injury, inexperience etc, but his performance has been his performance and his game (statistically) just doesn't lend to him playing the position.

His assists/TO % are abysmal, he can't hasn't shown an ability to create shots for himself or others.

Don't get me wrong, I like they guy, but not as a PG from what I'm seeing.

I agree. Playing Bradley at PG is like beating a dead horse. He's already proven he can't play the position.

Better off having either Bogans or Lee play the position. Barbosa is still available, isn't he?
Or is he not bad enough?

Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2013, 09:40:51 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Neither Ainge nor DJ were "assist" masters. But between them they got the ball over half court (it was a little dicey for Ainge sometimes...)and they initiated the offense.

Bird initiated a lot of the offense on the break or in the half court.

While having a guy like Rondo is a nice luxury, this team could be similar even when Rondo returns. Bradley Green can certainly initiate the break in certain situations and Olynyk could do a lot of facilitating in the half court sets.

Other than Rondo, nobody currently on the roster is as good a passer as Bird, McHale, Parish, or perhaps even Ainge were.  Passing was part of those guys' greatness.
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Re: Starting Point Guard thru December?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2013, 10:31:48 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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