Are these PGs better than our Rondo?

[BballTim]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

  While you're criticizing Rondo's style of defense, keep in mind that Rondo plays the kind of defense Doc wants him to, not the kind of defense you want him to. Rondo's 1v1 defense is generally very good (although this wasn't his best year) but he tends to cause a lot of havoc for the other team by drifting away from his man and playing the passing lanes.

[BballTim]

basically yes assist just aint  gone get it they can score rondo cant pierce and kg gone his assist will drop to now back to averge player

  Yawn. Tons of posters always claimed that Rondo got his assists from playing with 3 superstars. Ray was in Miami last year and PP and KG aren't superstars anymore, I didn't seem to notice the drop in his assists that everyone said I would.

[D.o.s.]

Rondo's defensive ratings are interesting because so much of his time was spent on the floor with KG, who was the engine behind those brutal Thibs-style Celtics defenses.

It doesn't surprise me that Rondo posted his worst defensive rating in the last year of the Garnett/Doc era, when KG was a step slower and teams had had yet another year to figure out their defensive schemes.

My suspicion is actually that Rondo's assist numbers will rise, because I don't think Stevens is going to have nearly the playbook that Doc and the C's used last year--I'm envisioning more transition game, and I'd wager that the ball is going to hit Rondo's hands (and stay there until the assist moment) once he's back on the floor almost every possession.

[mattch]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

I agree, he did look lazy at times last season, but statistically wise he was still solid. Actually, according to SynergySports, he was still one of the best point guard defenders in the league, close to Bradley even. Whatever Rondo was doing, it was working.

And theres no way I could put Irving above Rondo. His defense is terrible, and the points he puts up hasn't contributed to enough wins for him to be a top 5 pg. He's NOT a playmaker. He does one thing really really well, and that's score.

At the end of the day, scoring wins games. He's still young, hasn't even reached his prime yet.

Scoring at his efficiency will win games. Only reason I have him ahead of Rose is because Rose has been out a full year.

[mattch]

basically yes assist just aint  gone get it they can score rondo cant pierce and kg gone his assist will drop to now back to averge player

  Yawn. Tons of posters always claimed that Rondo got his assists from playing with 3 superstars. Ray was in Miami last year and PP and KG aren't superstars anymore, I didn't seem to notice the drop in his assists that everyone said I would.

He got his assists but overall offensive efficiency went down. Part of that can be attributed to Rondo. I'm not saying Rondo is the main cause of the offense being the 27th best, but he's certainly part of the problem, since the ball starts in his hands.

[Roy H.]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

  While you're criticizing Rondo's style of defense, keep in mind that Rondo plays the kind of defense Doc wants him to, not the kind of defense you want him to. Rondo's 1v1 defense is generally very good (although this wasn't his best year) but he tends to cause a lot of havoc for the other team by drifting away from his man and playing the passing lanes.

Hasn't Doc publicly criticized Rondo for gambling too much, and for reaching rather than squaring-up on defense?

I think it's hard to say that's the defense Doc wanted him to play, which I believe is the type of defense that mattch was describing.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

  While you're criticizing Rondo's style of defense, keep in mind that Rondo plays the kind of defense Doc wants him to, not the kind of defense you want him to. Rondo's 1v1 defense is generally very good (although this wasn't his best year) but he tends to cause a lot of havoc for the other team by drifting away from his man and playing the passing lanes.

Hasn't Doc publicly criticized Rondo for gambling too much, and for reaching rather than squaring-up on defense?

I think it's hard to say that's the defense Doc wanted him to play, which I believe is the type of defense that mattch was describing.

Agreed. I don't know where Tim is coming from with the whole "Rondo is doing what the coached asked him to" kind of ideas.

Can argue about the pros and cons about his defensive style, but this whole Doc wants him to defend this way stuff is utterly foolish in my opinion, and unfounded.

[BudweiserCeltic]

basically yes assist just aint  gone get it they can score rondo cant pierce and kg gone his assist will drop to now back to averge player

  Yawn. Tons of posters always claimed that Rondo got his assists from playing with 3 superstars. Ray was in Miami last year and PP and KG aren't superstars anymore, I didn't seem to notice the drop in his assists that everyone said I would.

Yep, I don't agree with the notion of his assists coming from playing with KG and PP. In many ways it hampered his assists totals mainly because his usage rate decreased with them, particularly with the Pierce ISOs.

[BballTim]

Rondo's defensive ratings are interesting because so much of his time was spent on the floor with KG, who was the engine behind those brutal Thibs-style Celtics defenses.

  Rondo only spends about 60% of his time on the court with KG. It's been that way the last couple of years with KG's 5-5-5 plan. That means he spent quite a bit of time on the court without KG on the court earlier this year when the defense was bad. It's a wonder his numbers are as good as they are.

It doesn't surprise me that Rondo posted his worst defensive rating in the last year of the Garnett/Doc era, when KG was a step slower and teams had had yet another year to figure out their defensive schemes.

  If you look at our defense this year, the team (with the new guys learning the system and the bigs playing terrible defense when KG was on the bench) played bad defense early on and improved as the season went on. Rondo played the bulk of his minutes during the "bad defense" part of the season. That probably affected his defensive rating. The team's defense from January on (including the time when Rondo was playing that much) was on the level of what it's been in recent years.

[BballTim]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

  While you're criticizing Rondo's style of defense, keep in mind that Rondo plays the kind of defense Doc wants him to, not the kind of defense you want him to. Rondo's 1v1 defense is generally very good (although this wasn't his best year) but he tends to cause a lot of havoc for the other team by drifting away from his man and playing the passing lanes.

Hasn't Doc publicly criticized Rondo for gambling too much, and for reaching rather than squaring-up on defense?

I think it's hard to say that's the defense Doc wanted him to play, which I believe is the type of defense that mattch was describing.

  Yes. At times Doc criticizes Rondo for gambling *too much*. That doesn't mean Doc doesn't want Rondo to gamble, in fact it means the opposite. It's just that how much Rondo gambles needs to be moderated from time to time. Doc frequently criticizes the team for over-passing. I doubt that anyone would take that to mean that Doc doesn't want the team to pass, just that at times he thinks they pass too much.

[mr. dee]

I also find it comical that some people say Rondo plays great defense. Rondo is one of the laziest defenders, and has no motor to play great defense.

This season Rondo tied a career worst DRTG of 103. 103 is the best DRTG Westbrook has ever had, is lower than Paul and Parker's career ratings, while tying Paul's second best rating, and would count as a very good defensive season for Rose. DRTG, like every metric, is flawed. But it does boil down defense performance into a manageable number and it's useful reference for comparison.

Rondo has a number of offensive limitations, and for reasons known, I can understand all those point guards being rated as superior. But his defense, or perceived lack thereof, is being blown out of proportion. I wouldn't call Rondo a lazy defender or question his motor.

I don't know how that statistic is measured. I'm not saying Rondo is a bad defender. At times he's an average defender, and at time's he can be a great defender, but he's found in no man's land too often, trying to double someone, and leaving his man wide open for a 3.

Rondo's 1 on 1 defense leaves a lot to be desired. Now in a system where everyone's rotating to a T, the risks Rondo takes on defense can be rewarded quite well. However, just like his risky passes, this risky defense doesn't create the best efficiency. Westbrook to me, plays much better 1v1 defense than Rondo.

I agree, he did look lazy at times last season, but statistically wise he was still solid. Actually, according to SynergySports, he was still one of the best point guard defenders in the league, close to Bradley even. Whatever Rondo was doing, it was working.

And theres no way I could put Irving above Rondo. His defense is terrible, and the points he puts up hasn't contributed to enough wins for him to be a top 5 pg. He's NOT a playmaker. He does one thing really really well, and that's score.

At the end of the day, scoring wins games. He's still young, hasn't even reached his prime yet.

Scoring at his efficiency will win games. Only reason I have him ahead of Rose is because Rose has been out a full year.

Offense wins games but defense wins championship. Indiana this year weren't really an offensive threat but them making it in the ECF is already an accomplishment.

[BballTim]

basically yes assist just aint  gone get it they can score rondo cant pierce and kg gone his assist will drop to now back to averge player

  Yawn. Tons of posters always claimed that Rondo got his assists from playing with 3 superstars. Ray was in Miami last year and PP and KG aren't superstars anymore, I didn't seem to notice the drop in his assists that everyone said I would.

He got his assists but overall offensive efficiency went down. Part of that can be attributed to Rondo. I'm not saying Rondo is the main cause of the offense being the 27th best, but he's certainly part of the problem, since the ball starts in his hands.

  Why don't you start listing the reasons the team's offensive efficiency went down and explain which ones can be attributed to Rondo. For me, I'd start with the offensive rebounding. Simply put, we have big men on the team who like to take 20 footers so they aren't under the basket when the other teams shoot. Secondly you have shot selection in general. The team doesn't take a ton of threes, doesn't take a ton of shots at the rim and the players don't take the ball to the rim and draw a huge amount of fouls. While we shoot the ball fairly efficiently, the shots we take aren't efficient.

  Are you saying Rondo's responsible for those things happening, or that there are bigger reasons for our bad offense that I didn't name?

[BballTim]

basically yes assist just aint  gone get it they can score rondo cant pierce and kg gone his assist will drop to now back to averge player

  Yawn. Tons of posters always claimed that Rondo got his assists from playing with 3 superstars. Ray was in Miami last year and PP and KG aren't superstars anymore, I didn't seem to notice the drop in his assists that everyone said I would.

Yep, I don't agree with the notion of his assists coming from playing with KG and PP. In many ways it hampered his assists totals mainly because his usage rate decreased with them, particularly with the Pierce ISOs.

  Not to mention that PP and KG have (for most of Rondo's time here) been among the league leaders for assists for their respective positions. Give them the ball and they're more likely to pass up the shot and send the ball to someone else than most other players.

[Casperian]

That's a meaningless comment. That's like saying Durant's job is to score so he should be good at it.

That´s not meaningless, that´s essentially correct. If Durant is the designated scorer, he should be good at it. You´re still not addressing my question.

Rondo's playmaking is more valuable than Rondo (or another point guard scoring because his passes lead to more efficient scoring chances than any point guards trying to score will. It turns out that how many points you get in a certain amount of possessions is important, at least to some people.

Which isn´t just on Rondo, and doesn´t account for the deficiencies his lack of scoring ability potentially brings.

Can you provide any evidence whatsoever that a loss in conversion rate happens at all?

What would you accept as evidence?
Currently, I´m accepting you telling me about some vague stat from a Wizards blog as evidence for your claims. Would you like me to just assume that the lack of floor spacing and amount of ball-pounding Rondo brings to the table has no effect on his teammates?

I´m saying it´s you who has to provide these numbers if you want them to back up your claim.

  Again, this was people looking at *every pass* Rondo made that led to a shot or a turnover (that otherwise would have led to a shot) over a three month period. Clearly that takes into account all of the killer passes, and whether the defense is prepared for the passes. And, yes, the person put his conversion rate into the average and into point increase on average.

Rondo is a part of the offense whether he passes or not. It´s 5-on-5.

Over the period of time in question, the Celts converted roughly 35% of their offensive chances that didn't start with a pass from Rondo and 55% of the chances that did come from a Rondo pass. The 20% increase compares to a league average (from 82games) of about 8%. And since KG and PP try to score with and without passes from Rondo they have something to do with the overall conversion rate but not necessarily with the 20% increase.

Or, it could be an indicator that if Rondo doesn´t happen to pass the ball, he´s basically a non-entity in the offense. True or not, it doesn´t back up your claim.

People come up with perfectly valid and well thought out reasons why a player with Rondo's flaws shouldn't be successful on the court. There seems to be the belief that if people don't see a flaw in their argument or agree with it that the argument somehow trumps what actually happens on the court.

Oh the irony.

Anyway, I never said he couldn´t be successful. I think Rondo´s good, he´s just not that good.

Again, the question you failed to answer was "why do you have a problem with valuing scoring from the PG position more highly than "play-making"?
Your claim was I´d have to consider just how good Rondo´s play-making really is, and you backed it up with a story about a stat on some Wizards blog, but didn´t deliver any context, and on top of that essentially demanded from me to do what should be your job.

If you use stats, Tim, make sure to use them correctly.

[mmmmm]

Rondo's defensive ratings are interesting because so much of his time was spent on the floor with KG, who was the engine behind those brutal Thibs-style Celtics defenses.

It doesn't surprise me that Rondo posted his worst defensive rating in the last year of the Garnett/Doc era, when KG was a step slower and teams had had yet another year to figure out their defensive schemes.

Defensive rating definitely does depend on the team around you.  It can be helped and it can be dragged down.

Here is an interesting one that I dug up a few weeks ago, though when talking about how strong we can expect the backcourt defense to be next season:

Rondo and Bradley have played together on the floor for 701 minutes the last two seasons. 

The team DRtg with both on the floor has been about 94.  Pretty awesome, right?

About 430 or so of those minutes were with KG as well.  The DRtg with all three was 96.   Still awesome, of course.

In the ~270 or so minutes that Rondo & Bradley have played without KG, the team DRtg was just under 90.

This last year, especially in the first 2 months of the season, the entire _team_ played poor team defense, especially with all the new guys on the floor.  Rondo was on the floor more than anyone else, with both good AND bad players, so his DRtg was dragged down.

But if you look at his DRtg in 5-man units that were mainly with the holdovers - more experienced in Doc's defense - Rondo's DRtgs were fantastic.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12BOS1.HTM#5man

If you look at the 5-man units that Rondo played the most minutes in, all but 2 of the top 7 have DRtgs of 99 or lower, and one of the other 2 is 101.  Only ONE of those units is 'bad' at 115 and that was the unit we played very early in the season with Lee at SG.  Just 78 minutes of that 'bad' unit dragged down the otherwise superb defense played in hundreds and hundreds of minutes in other configurations.

Courtney Lee consistently had problems making defensive rotations last season and that is why he eventually got benched.

It is very telling that swapping JET in for Lee fixed a ton of defensive problems because, while JET was a smaller, slower player, he was much more experienced and savvy and didn't make stupid mistakes on rotations.

I really hope Lee plays better team defense this year.  I still think he is a good player with a lot of potential we didn't see last year.   Stevens' system is very similar to Doc's so that should help.