Per 36 career numbers game

[Fan from VT]

10-11, Kidd/Marion/Terry, Dallas (3-5)
WS48  PER  ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;         p36 r36, a36
.116  14.4      7.9   4.4   8.2  361/870/341    8.5 4.8  8.2
.120  17.0    12.5   6.9   1.4  520/768/152   16.0  8.8  1.8
.100  15.9    15.8   1.9   4.4  451/850/362    18.2  2.1  4.7

09-10, Odom, LAL
WS48  PER   ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;       p36  r36,  a36
.148  15.9    10.8   9.8   3.3  463/693/319  12.3  11.2  3.7

[Fan from VT]

08-09, Ariza/Odom, LAL (4-5)
WS48  PER  ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;         p36 r36, a36
.146  15.5      8.9   4.3   1.8  460/710/319    13.1 6.3  2.6
.143  16.5    11.3   8.2   2.6  492/623/320   13.8  9.9  3.2

07-08, Rondo/Perk, Bos (4-5)
WS48  PER   ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;       p36  r36,  a36
.150  15.6    10.6   4.2   5.1  492/611/263  12.7   5.0  6.1
.156  13.3      6.9   6.1  1.1   615/623/000  10.2   8.9  1.6

[Moranis]

I don't understand why the discussion is being framed in this way.

Who said Jeff Green has to be "legit top 2 option on a contender" good in order to justify the support he gets from most people around here?

This idea that there's a significant contingent of CBers who think Jeff Green is going to be a legitimate number 1 option seems like a fabrication to me.  Apparently the point of this thread is for Moranis to congratulate himself for defeating a bunch of straw men.

You just aren't paying attention.  There are posts all over the place talking about Green becoming an all star and being a 25 point per game scorer. 

Here are a couple of quotes from the last couple of days

Jeff Green most improved player, 20/10/5, All Star reserve

Rondo and Green re-establish themselves as star players.

Then there is this thread, about half say star, half fairly reasonable http://forums.celticsblog.com/index.php?topic=66438.0

[Moranis]

I think the hope is that we can get something approaching the production that Jeff Green gave us after the all star break last season for a full season.

I'll gladly take 17.0 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 2.7 APG on .493 FG% and .439 from 3 for the 2013-2014 season (that was in 33.5 MPG.  If his minutes go up to 36 to 38 MPG, then I would expect his numbers to go up accordingly).

I think he could definitely approach those numbers, though I'm not optimistic about those shooting percentages -- especially from deep.

Green is going to be the primary focus of the opponent's defense every single night.

And let's just say he does get those numbers (which I actually think are reasonable).  They aren't that good.  That is 4th best player on a title team type numbers.  That isn't #1 option numbers. 

  That's nonsense. How many title teams have had 4 players getting big minutes that all put up 17 pp36 or better?

That isn't what I said or implied.

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, but it seems to me that 17/5/2.7 are pretty lofty numbers for the 4th best player on any team. Definitely not 4th best scorer. Maybe there will be an argument in terms of a very good defensive player not getting to 17 ppg. But, let's go to BBall Reference... i will be right back!

My point, as I've explained numerous times, is Green would be getting those numbers as the #1 scoring option on a bad team, which would equate to at best a 4th best player on a title team.  I clearly used Ray Allen (in Boston) and Chris Bosh to show that point.  Now granted they were 3rd options on title teams, but they were far better than anything you could reasonably expect from Jeff Green.  Lamar Odom and Antoine Walker were fairly recent 3/4 type options on a title teams.  Look at their peaks when then were 1/2 options on teams.

[BballTim]

I think the hope is that we can get something approaching the production that Jeff Green gave us after the all star break last season for a full season.

I'll gladly take 17.0 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 2.7 APG on .493 FG% and .439 from 3 for the 2013-2014 season (that was in 33.5 MPG.  If his minutes go up to 36 to 38 MPG, then I would expect his numbers to go up accordingly).

I think he could definitely approach those numbers, though I'm not optimistic about those shooting percentages -- especially from deep.

Green is going to be the primary focus of the opponent's defense every single night.

And let's just say he does get those numbers (which I actually think are reasonable).  They aren't that good.  That is 4th best player on a title team type numbers.  That isn't #1 option numbers. 

  That's nonsense. How many title teams have had 4 players getting big minutes that all put up 17 pp36 or better?

That isn't what I said or implied.

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, but it seems to me that 17/5/2.7 are pretty lofty numbers for the 4th best player on any team. Definitely not 4th best scorer. Maybe there will be an argument in terms of a very good defensive player not getting to 17 ppg. But, let's go to BBall Reference... i will be right back!

My point, as I've explained numerous times, is Green would be getting those numbers as the #1 scoring option on a bad team, which would equate to at best a 4th best player on a title team.  I clearly used Ray Allen (in Boston) and Chris Bosh to show that point.  Now granted they were 3rd options on title teams, but they were far better than anything you could reasonably expect from Jeff Green.  Lamar Odom and Antoine Walker were fairly recent 3/4 type options on a title teams.  Look at their peaks when then were 1/2 options on teams.

  So you're saying Green was our #1 scoring option last year? I thought he was the #3 option on a playoff team.

[Fan from VT]

06-07, Brent Barry, SAS (4) argument could be made for Bowen or Bonner.
WS48  PER  ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;         p36 r36, a36
.201  16.6      8.5   2.1   1.8  475/880/446   14.0 3.5  3.0


05-06, Mourning, Miami (4)
WS48  PER   ppg  rpg  apg   fg/ft/3p;       p36  r36,  a36
.176  19.4    7.8   5.5   0.2  597/000/594  14.1   9.9  0.3

[PhoSita]

I think the hope is that we can get something approaching the production that Jeff Green gave us after the all star break last season for a full season.

I'll gladly take 17.0 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 2.7 APG on .493 FG% and .439 from 3 for the 2013-2014 season (that was in 33.5 MPG.  If his minutes go up to 36 to 38 MPG, then I would expect his numbers to go up accordingly).

I think he could definitely approach those numbers, though I'm not optimistic about those shooting percentages -- especially from deep.

Green is going to be the primary focus of the opponent's defense every single night.

And let's just say he does get those numbers (which I actually think are reasonable).  They aren't that good.  That is 4th best player on a title team type numbers.  That isn't #1 option numbers. 

  That's nonsense. How many title teams have had 4 players getting big minutes that all put up 17 pp36 or better?

That isn't what I said or implied.

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, but it seems to me that 17/5/2.7 are pretty lofty numbers for the 4th best player on any team. Definitely not 4th best scorer. Maybe there will be an argument in terms of a very good defensive player not getting to 17 ppg. But, let's go to BBall Reference... i will be right back!

My point, as I've explained numerous times, is Green would be getting those numbers as the #1 scoring option on a bad team, which would equate to at best a 4th best player on a title team.  I clearly used Ray Allen (in Boston) and Chris Bosh to show that point.  Now granted they were 3rd options on title teams, but they were far better than anything you could reasonably expect from Jeff Green.  Lamar Odom and Antoine Walker were fairly recent 3/4 type options on a title teams.  Look at their peaks when then were 1/2 options on teams.

Well, as far as the All-Star thing goes, Luol Deng was an All-Star in a weak year, and I've already said I think Green could have a season like that.

I don't think he's ever leading us to a championship or anything, though.

But he's certainly capable of being better than just "mediocre" or "average."

[Fan from VT]

-Seems like most teams' 4th best players aren't scorers, but are rather defenders/rebounders.

-Most teams' 3-5 options actually have higher per 36 numbers than total numbers; Green is quite different as a High Minutes/average production type player

-Green's PERs/WS48s are quite less than most 3-5 options on title teams; this is mostly due to Green getting respectable total numbers through sub-efficient production in very high minutes.

[BballTim]

-Seems like most teams' 4th best players aren't scorers, but are rather defenders/rebounders.

-Most teams' 3-5 options actually have higher per 36 numbers than total numbers; Green is quite different as a High Minutes/average production type player

-Green's PERs/WS48s are quite less than most 3-5 options on title teams; this is mostly due to Green getting respectable total numbers through sub-efficient production in very high minutes.

  Green's efficiency varied quite a bit over the season, improving as he became healthier/less rusty.

[Moranis]

I think the hope is that we can get something approaching the production that Jeff Green gave us after the all star break last season for a full season.

I'll gladly take 17.0 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 2.7 APG on .493 FG% and .439 from 3 for the 2013-2014 season (that was in 33.5 MPG.  If his minutes go up to 36 to 38 MPG, then I would expect his numbers to go up accordingly).

I think he could definitely approach those numbers, though I'm not optimistic about those shooting percentages -- especially from deep.

Green is going to be the primary focus of the opponent's defense every single night.

And let's just say he does get those numbers (which I actually think are reasonable).  They aren't that good.  That is 4th best player on a title team type numbers.  That isn't #1 option numbers. 

  That's nonsense. How many title teams have had 4 players getting big minutes that all put up 17 pp36 or better?

That isn't what I said or implied.

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, but it seems to me that 17/5/2.7 are pretty lofty numbers for the 4th best player on any team. Definitely not 4th best scorer. Maybe there will be an argument in terms of a very good defensive player not getting to 17 ppg. But, let's go to BBall Reference... i will be right back!

My point, as I've explained numerous times, is Green would be getting those numbers as the #1 scoring option on a bad team, which would equate to at best a 4th best player on a title team.  I clearly used Ray Allen (in Boston) and Chris Bosh to show that point.  Now granted they were 3rd options on title teams, but they were far better than anything you could reasonably expect from Jeff Green.  Lamar Odom and Antoine Walker were fairly recent 3/4 type options on a title teams.  Look at their peaks when then were 1/2 options on teams.

  So you're saying Green was our #1 scoring option last year? I thought he was the #3 option on a playoff team.

He was our #2 offensive option (as he was for 2 years in Seattle/OKC), but I was referring to Green this year.  Now if Green goes for 25 points a game this year, I will certainly stand corrected, but I just can't see him doing that.

[Fan from VT]

-Seems like most teams' 4th best players aren't scorers, but are rather defenders/rebounders.

-Most teams' 3-5 options actually have higher per 36 numbers than total numbers; Green is quite different as a High Minutes/average production type player

-Green's PERs/WS48s are quite less than most 3-5 options on title teams; this is mostly due to Green getting respectable total numbers through sub-efficient production in very high minutes.

  Green's efficiency varied quite a bit over the season, improving as he became healthier/less rusty.

Problem is, he's had a lot of up and down periods most seasons of his career; I'm very hesitant to take a small period which happens to be his best, throw out the rest, and say "this is a reasonable expectation going forward." That's how teams overpay to keep their own guys; they get over excited about a good stretch and rationalize away the bad stretch. 


Additionally, if he had come out gang-busters, then had his bad 2/3 of the season at the end of the season, the argument would be "oh, look how good he was when he was rested! he just got tired later in the season from missing a year, but that first 1/3 of the year is the REAL green!"

[BballTim]

I think the hope is that we can get something approaching the production that Jeff Green gave us after the all star break last season for a full season.

I'll gladly take 17.0 PPG, 5.0 RPG, 2.7 APG on .493 FG% and .439 from 3 for the 2013-2014 season (that was in 33.5 MPG.  If his minutes go up to 36 to 38 MPG, then I would expect his numbers to go up accordingly).

I think he could definitely approach those numbers, though I'm not optimistic about those shooting percentages -- especially from deep.

Green is going to be the primary focus of the opponent's defense every single night.

And let's just say he does get those numbers (which I actually think are reasonable).  They aren't that good.  That is 4th best player on a title team type numbers.  That isn't #1 option numbers. 

  That's nonsense. How many title teams have had 4 players getting big minutes that all put up 17 pp36 or better?

That isn't what I said or implied.

I have no idea what the answer to this question is, but it seems to me that 17/5/2.7 are pretty lofty numbers for the 4th best player on any team. Definitely not 4th best scorer. Maybe there will be an argument in terms of a very good defensive player not getting to 17 ppg. But, let's go to BBall Reference... i will be right back!

My point, as I've explained numerous times, is Green would be getting those numbers as the #1 scoring option on a bad team, which would equate to at best a 4th best player on a title team.  I clearly used Ray Allen (in Boston) and Chris Bosh to show that point.  Now granted they were 3rd options on title teams, but they were far better than anything you could reasonably expect from Jeff Green.  Lamar Odom and Antoine Walker were fairly recent 3/4 type options on a title teams.  Look at their peaks when then were 1/2 options on teams.

  So you're saying Green was our #1 scoring option last year? I thought he was the #3 option on a playoff team.

He was our #2 offensive option (as he was for 2 years in Seattle/OKC), but I was referring to Green this year.  Now if Green goes for 25 points a game this year, I will certainly stand corrected, but I just can't see him doing that.

  I don't see him scoring 25 a game either, it's just something of a pet peeve of mine that people say that he's at best a #3 or #4 option, I think they don't realize how rare it is for teams to have more than 2 players scoring more than 15-16 ppg.