Can we stop with this tanking ?

[LilRip]

Here's the thing, those who are arguing against tanking are not saying that bottoming out and rebuilding by landing top draft pick can't lead to a team building a title contender.  Those who are arguing for tanking, on the other hand, seem to be saying that it is the only way to build a contender.

The latter simply isn't true.  The Pistons, the Lakers, and the Mavericks are all recent examples of teams that built champions without landing top five draft picks to build their team. 

There is obviously more than one way to build a contender.  I wish the tank crowd would just say that tanking is their preferred method, as opposed to trying to make the faulty claim that it is the only method.

But I also disagree with how the anti-tank crowd perceives the whole method to be as simple as "land wiggins or bust". For me, that's short term and uncreative thinking. I've seen plenty of intelligent posts pointing out the countless ways the C's can play their cards that have been ignored.

I also disagree with the notion that what we should strive for just making the playoffs year on year, being a 6-8th seed in the east, and where getting past the first round would be enough cause for celebration.

[Sarcasma]

Listen I know everyone has the right to there own opinion but hearing everyone talking about tanking does not make sense to me.  Are you not a Celtics Fan, Do you really want to see this team play horrible for a whole season?  Maybe its just me, but I'm not that kind of fan.  Lets use our assists that we have and get the best possible players to win this year and every year after.  I get it, Wiggins looks good, but I do not want to watch horrible B-Ball for a season just for a very small chance of getting him.

I just don't get it.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. Winning into the playoffs...which we'd lose in the first round. We'd then be  losing lottery pics...lottery pics help us win. Its pretty simple and basic.

[LGC88]

Well, I think it's a financial decision to take from the owner. Fighting for playoffs keep the stadium full, they sell jerseys all around the world and a playoff series is a lot of extra income for the franchise.
We don't know Wyc's plan, but as for now, it doesn't look like they are going at wiggins or Parker. If in the rebuilding mode they can have a top 10 pick that would be a bonus but I don't think it's the franchise priority. Or else they would have shop Rondo and Green as well. Those 2 players will put you out of lottery. There are many teams planning to be very bad next season, it will be harder to have the lowest record than to reach Conference finals (just kidding).

[alajet]

You're not looking at the bigger picture. Winning into the playoffs...which we'd lose in the first round. We'd then be  losing lottery pics...lottery pics help us win. Its pretty simple and basic.

That said, there is no way to guarantee how a lottery pick will pan out (as deep as this next draft is going to be), though.

I don't like the tanking concept as a whole. Personally, I'd love to see my team trying its best to the final moment and land whichever pick it's supposed to land with.
The worst team doesn't necessarily get the top pick, after all.

[vjcsmoke]

Fairweatherfan (now foulweatherfan) had a perfect quote for this the other day, which I think I might need to make my signature . . .

Sometimes winning games is losing.  Sometimes losing games is winning.  This year, for the Celtics, wanting the team to win in the big picture means wanting them to lose individual games.

BIG PICTURE - Wiggins in Celtic Green is our best chance at revisiting a championship.  If we get only a top 5 pick in the upcoming draft, we still have a chance at an all-star player and building a real contender.

[PhoSita]

Listen I know everyone has the right to there own opinion but hearing everyone talking about tanking does not make sense to me.  Are you not a Celtics Fan, Do you really want to see this team play horrible for a whole season?  Maybe its just me, but I'm not that kind of fan.  Lets use our assists that we have and get the best possible players to win this year and every year after.  I get it, Wiggins looks good, but I do not want to watch horrible B-Ball for a season just for a very small chance of getting him.

I just don't get it.

I don't blame you for not liking it.  Some people don't have patience.  Some people don't have long-term vision.  Some people just legitimately don't get it.

If you're someone who legitimately doesn't get it... hopefully I can help explain why I'm excited.

I'd gladly suffer through the 1978 (32 wins) and 1979 (29 wins) seasons... if it means I get 1980-1988... essentially 60+ wins every season, 3 Championships, 5 Finals Appearances.  That wouldn't have been possible had Boston not "bottomed out" and went for broke.

On the flip side, I'm not very anxious to go through 2000-2006 again... basically 35-45 wins every season... 4 playoff appearances.. basically also-ran status where you get eliminated in the first couple rounds of the playoffs if you make the playoffs at all.  Perpetual mediocrity.

It wasn't until we forced ourselves to bottom out in 2007 (24 wins while intentionally losing games) that we acquired the assets necessary to make a major splash and put together 2008-2011... a short-lived contender.   You don't get the opportnity to put together that short-lived contender without bottoming out in 2007.

So the question is... would you rather suffer through 6+ years of perpetual mediocrity (the Walker/Pierce years)... or would you rather bottom out for a couple years (like the late 70s) for a chance at 8+ years of being a serious title threat?

Tanking is a process, but it's an effective one.  It's how you gain gold in this league.  Gold that either turns into a star building block... or allows you to trade for a star building block.   Some people want to just stay mildly competitive with the other 16 teams that make the playoffs every year (over half the league)... and doing that you might luck into a little silver piece here and there in the draft, but probably not gold.  The gold usually gets snatched up during the top 5-8 picks in the draft.  Yeah not all of them turn into gold... but if Wonka puts a golden ticket in his Wonka Bars, there's very little chance you'll find a golden ticket in a Hershey bar.  You might get some chocolate though.  We all like chocolate.  I'm going to eat some chocolate.  Brb.  Ok I'm back.  I think my blood sugar was low.  I hate when that happens.

Tanking is definitely the way to go right now.  Suck it up for a couple years and then we'll be looking to cash in our chips or build around the chips we have acquired...  bbl, gonna eat some chips.

. . . but the 2004 Pistons prove once and for all definitively that you can win a championship without ever tanking!  We just need to duplicate what they did!

We can totally have the gain with none of the pain!

I'd argue that 1 aberration doesn't doesn't make it a rule.  Also, arguably the most important player on those Pistons teams was 4 time Defensive Player of the Year Ben Wallace... 4 time allstar and 5 time 1st team All-Defense during Detroit's stretch.  The highest EFF of anyone on that team.  And it's fair to note that Ben Wallace was acquired when Detroit sign-and-traded Grant Hill to the Magic, a player they only acquired through bottoming out with 20 wins and landed the #3 pick.  Hill had lead the Pistons to the playoffs 4 times in 5 years prior to that trade.

Preaching to the choir, dude.  I thought all the exclamation points would underline the sarcasm.

Ben Wallace was a defensive superstar, though not an offensive one.  Ben Wallace is in my top 50 players all time. 

[SHAQATTACK]

pretty much shredded the team already

no coach, no KG

 no assistant coach worth a wooden nickel

next thing is sell the Garden and move the team to China

welcome to 20 years of nothing

[Celtics4ever]

welcome to 20 years of nothing

We were in the NBA doldrums last time because no one took action like this when Bird left.   I think we tank hard a year or two and we will be back as a competitive team.

If we keep Green, Rondo, Sully and add one more piece then we come back quicker especially if Oly pans out.

[Snakehead]

I'm a long term fan, not a short term one.  Whatever improved our chances long term I'll sit through a hellish season.

[bfrombleacher]

welcome to 20 years of nothing

We were in the NBA doldrums last time because no one took action like this when Bird left.   I think we tank hard a year or two and we will be back as a competitive team.

If we keep Green, Rondo, Sully and add one more piece then we come back quicker especially if Oly pans out.

Len Bias and Reggie Lewis

[Casperian]

Here's the thing, those who are arguing against tanking are not saying that bottoming out and rebuilding by landing top draft pick can't lead to a team building a title contender.  Those who are arguing for tanking, on the other hand, seem to be saying that it is the only way to build a contender.

I´m pro "going young", and I never said that. You´re making stuff up.

[tyrone biggums]

welcome to 20 years of nothing

We were in the NBA doldrums last time because no one took action like this when Bird left.   I think we tank hard a year or two and we will be back as a competitive team.

If we keep Green, Rondo, Sully and add one more piece then we come back quicker especially if Oly pans out.

Len Bias and Reggie Lewis

Len Bias, Reggie Lewis, Paul Gaston, Rick Pitino (as GM), Travis Knight, Vin Baker, trading Billups/Joe Johnson, Joe Forte/Kedrick Brown over Jefferson and Parker. But yeah...other than those reasons I agree hanging onto Bird set us back 20 years....

SMH

[Bossco]

Why don't people mention the fact that when we tanked in 96/97 we DID NOT GET Duncan? We had the highest % of any team to get the number one pick.

Or in 2007 we didn't get one of the top 2 picks either. Had we gotten the #1 pick all the talk then was about getting Oden.

I don" think that our 2008 championship was created by tanking the year before. It happened because of the shrewd trades DA made with the assets he acquired since he became GM. The biggest chip that we had to get KG was big Al. He was a 15TH pick.

Another ironic tidbit is the fact that Chris Wallace had Big Ben for the Celtics but didn't understand how good he would  become. Ben Wallace wasn't even drafted. I read recently that he was voted best non drafted player in NBA history.

I got my season tix when Pitino arrived. If it were true that tanking is the answer then we would have had at least as many  rings as as Timmy got and slick rick would have become one of the greatest C's coaches of all time.

There are are no guarantees in any of this. Trader Danny will try to do his thing with all the available options. Trades, sign and trades, FA's and the draft.
Let's hope he can do it again this time.

[mmmmm]

Four - and possibly FIVE of the nine first round picks we currently own for the next 5 years are NOT determined by our own record.

In other words, whether we 'tank' or not has almost zero effect on those picks.

Of the nine picks, the ones that look most likely to be high, with a chance in the lottery, would be the 2016 & 2017 Nets picks (because of their contract / salary horizon).   If Chris Paul gets injured again, I wouldn't be surprised if the 2015 Clipper's pick is a decent one as well, but it's not good to expect or hope for injuries.

The ones that look the _least_ likely to be in the lottery would be the 2014 Nets pick and probably our own 2014, unless we purposely tank our selves.  And our own 2017 & 2018 picks will probably not be in the lottery either, as we should be a strong team again by then.

The most optimal path is not necessarily to deconstruct to the point of tanking ourselves.   The risk with deconstruction is that you can end up inadvertently creating problems such as ruining the development of young players, and creating a generally 'losing' environment.

The most optimal path, given our situation, might be to continue to work & move assets EXCEPT for those most likely to end up high in the lottery to strengthen the team as much as possible.   Yes, you won't likely make a deep playoff run.  But you can build up a solid, winning core of players.   When the Nets or Clips inevitably stumble, you will have a strong team AND a top draft pick or two.   So you will be dropping a star talent rookie in with an already strong cast.

Waiting for 2015, 2016 might require more patience from the 'tank it now' crowd.  But it actually stays on Danny's original timeline, given that is the time frame a lot of his contracts come off the books.   You'll know by then whether to extend guys like Bradley, Green, Sully.  You'll be clear of contracts like Bass, Lee, Humphries & Wallace.   You may have moved some of those along with some of the draft picks mentioned above in order to bring in more preferable talent.

Just a hypothetical, but you might be able to make a deal for a player like Aldridge, who wants out of Portland, by giving up three of those picks that are least likely to be in the lottery and a couple of our contracts.   Aldridge is the kind of star we are looking for in those drafts but he's proven already.  I would do that deal in a heartbeat.

So you'll have accomplished three things going this route: 

1) You'll have shored up your own young talent as much as possible and continued to emphasize the goal of winning.  With the right trade, you may already have added a super stud.

2) You'll be past the bad contracts and should only have long term contracts on players you actually want to keep.

3) You'll still be picking in the first round - potentially very high in the first round if other teams stumble.

And none of that requires that the Celtics tank.

[tyrone biggums]

Listen I know everyone has the right to there own opinion but hearing everyone talking about tanking does not make sense to me.  Are you not a Celtics Fan, Do you really want to see this team play horrible for a whole season?  Maybe its just me, but I'm not that kind of fan.  Lets use our assists that we have and get the best possible players to win this year and every year after.  I get it, Wiggins looks good, but I do not want to watch horrible B-Ball for a season just for a very small chance of getting him.

I just don't get it.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. Winning into the playoffs...which we'd lose in the first round. We'd then be  losing lottery pics...lottery pics help us win. Its pretty simple and basic.

Rondo, Big Al, Tony Allen, Delonte West. Avery Bradley all non lottery picks. The majority of stars come from the lottery but you often find most of your busts there as well. In fact the people in the tank it now crowd that are complaining about the KG trade in the first place are mad that the Celtics traded a bunch of non lottery players for KG and a title. I don't get it...I know it's not the majority here but the fact that even one person here could have that view is terrible. Back to the good old days of "potential ball".