Schroeder or Muhammad?

[Sully7]

you judge....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISAOSMA2kP8

[lightspeed5]

I do think it's interesting however when group think enters any board.  Re-read all 5 pages of threads and notice the criticism of Muhammed...its often unrelated to basketball and clearly from people who have watched that one highlight linked and nothing more.

Um ... I literally just wrote 3 paragraphs criticizing Muhammad based EXCLUSIVELY on basketball reasons, and your response is to say that the criticism of Muhammad is unrelated to basketball? Did you even read my post?

I'm not here it insult anyone and if thats how the statement was perceived I apologize, I do however stand by my opinion.

Oh, I know you weren't trying to insult anyone. I didn't take it personally or anything, I was just saying generically it bothers me when people use that "Well, you just didn't watch him play!" line.

  Muhammed might not be a great player, he might not ever pan out, but he also has one of the higher ceilings in this draft.

See, I disagree. I think his ceiling is extremely constrained by the complete lack of any skill set besides scoring down low. He is a decent, but not great, mid-range shooter - most of his scoring comes in the paint against smaller defenders. That is literally his only basketball skill - he can't defend, rebound, pass, dribble, or anything else at an elite level. One-dimensional players do NOT have high ceilings as a rule.

you're being very picky for a team that is picking 16th overall. Ok so he's ONLY a decent mid-ranger and he's money down low. what more can you ask for from a player picked 16th in a weak draft?

[SHAQATTACK]

neither

needs bigs

[syfy9]

  Muhammed might not be a great player, he might not ever pan out, but he also has one of the higher ceilings in this draft.

See, I disagree. I think his ceiling is extremely constrained by the complete lack of any skill set besides scoring down low. He is a decent, but not great, mid-range shooter - most of his scoring comes in the paint against smaller defenders. That is literally his only basketball skill - he can't defend, rebound, pass, dribble, or anything else at an elite level. One-dimensional players do NOT have high ceilings as a rule.

And add that he's an average to below average athlete, and probably a hindrance in the locker room; he's someone we should stay away from.

Star is really stretching it for him. All-star is also stretching it, if you look at Monta Ellis or Steph Curry. Scoring a lot doesn't make you a star any more than J.R Smith, Jamal Crawford, and Austin Rivers are. Austin Rivers is probably a good comparison in terms of his success in the league when he comes in. Smith and Crawford are around his ceiling.

Though I do like to point out that he is a pretty good rebounder for a guard.

[mmmmm]

Muhammad is sliding to the mid-first round because his dad is an idiot not for any behavior he has presented.  Everyone comments on the age issue...his dads report, not his statement....everyone talks about him wanting the ball....isn't that what you want a scorer think at the end of a game...His character issues are so over blown ...  i think a lot of this stems from his diagnoses of Tourette's syndrome and teams being weary of players with any sort of psychological diagnosis. 

If I were to pick apart his game, having actually watched several UCLA games, he looks a little heavy/out of shape for an elite player (Paul Pierce anyone), he does go left a lot (Jeff Green only goes right), he used his body to bully around players who couldn't match up and won't get those probably won't get those chances in the NBA.

Shabazz is a scoring 2 or 3 and the C's have far too many 2's but for what he could bring to the table I would take him in a second and try hard to move Terry/Lee/Crawford.

I concur with a lot of this.

Shabazz is not my first choice in this draft for our pick, but he's in the top 3 or 4 of the guys I expect might be available to us.  And I'd take him over Shroeder.

The thing I like about Shabazz' game is it's based on craft, not athleticism.  Far too many college players dominate in college because they are taller/faster/bigger than their opponents and then that doesn't translate to the NBA.

Shabazz scores by being crafty and with body control.  He's not the longest, fastest or biggest (though he'd be a big SG and he is strong, even for his size).   He's a scorer.   I think he'll continue to score in the NBA.

[Sully7]

"See, I disagree. I think his ceiling is extremely constrained by the complete lack of any skill set besides scoring down low. He is a decent, but not great, mid-range shooter - most of his scoring comes in the paint against smaller defenders. That is literally his only basketball skill - he can't defend, rebound, pass, dribble, or anything else at an elite level. One-dimensional players do NOT have high ceilings as a rule."

I disagree with this statement.  The biggest complaint of this draft is the level of high end talent.  Noel at this moment is fairly one-dimensional, Mcklemore is fairly one-dimensional, MCW is fairly one-dimensional.  IF scoring is what Shabazz does well then that is the reason he is being drafted.  His scoring comes from all over the floor (not just in the paint) and unlike so many college kids he can shoot off the catch.  He can transition, pick and pop, shoot the three, play back to the basket, and has a mid-range jumper.  He does need to develop his handle but that is something that can come. 

[Sully7]

And add that he's an average to below average athlete, and probably a hindrance in the locker room; he's someone we should stay away from.


[/quote]

This is what I was talking about...how is he a hinderance in the locker room? 

HE could be...but I'll i've read about is how messed up his dad is...I mean seriously this kid was named Shabazz Muhammed because his dad thought he would be able to market him better.

[syfy9]

"See, I disagree. I think his ceiling is extremely constrained by the complete lack of any skill set besides scoring down low. He is a decent, but not great, mid-range shooter - most of his scoring comes in the paint against smaller defenders. That is literally his only basketball skill - he can't defend, rebound, pass, dribble, or anything else at an elite level. One-dimensional players do NOT have high ceilings as a rule."

I disagree with this statement.  The biggest complaint of this draft is the level of high end talent.  Noel at this moment is fairly one-dimensional, Mcklemore is fairly one-dimensional, MCW is fairly one-dimensional.  IF scoring is what Shabazz does well then that is the reason he is being drafted.  His scoring comes from all over the floor (not just in the paint) and unlike so many college kids he can shoot off the catch.  He can transition, pick and pop, shoot the three, play back to the basket, and has a mid-range jumper.  He does need to develop his handle but that is something that can come. 

Noel put up defensive numbers similar to Hakeem Olajuwon, Tim Duncan, Anthony Davis. 2 spg and 4 bpg...plus he's a big, which is a commodity in the NBA.

McLemore is a shooter, can score off passes and finish, and plays pretty good defense. You can see with his shot that he's more dominant than Shabazz in almost every way. A much better asset. A great spot up shooter is more valuable than a decent shot creator.

MCW is really good in the passing lanes, one of the best defenders in the draft against opposing PGs. He's also a good passer. Don't see the one-dimensionalness there.


Also - Shabazz isn't only one-dimensional, but he's also pretty inefficient.

[lightspeed5]

lets get shabazz

[syfy9]

This is what I was talking about...how is he a hinderance in the locker room? 

HE could be...but I'll i've read about is how messed up his dad is...I mean seriously this kid was named Shabazz Muhammed because his dad thought he would be able to market him better.

All evidence suggests so.

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/blog/doug-gottlieb/22333162/nba-draft-buyer-beware-on-shabazz-muhammad

I've never met him, but I'm entitled to my own opinion. I think he would be a hindrance.

Muhammad also stinks as a teammate. We all saw the pouting on the floor after his teammate Larry Drew hit the game-winner versus Washington last season, when Shabazz was shouting for the ball. I have been told by multiple sources that such behavior was the norm. When Muhammad didn't get his touches, didn't get his numbers, he was totally disconnected from his team.

His arrogance and lack of desire to be coached was apparent to all who watched.

"Shabazz was only about Shabazz, go back and look at how he came out of [games] -- he would not walk close to Ben [Howland]," one UCLA source told me. Translation: coach killer.

Could Muhammad become an off-the-bench scorer? Sure, but will he be happy or will he kill the coach behind the scenes while he learns to accept his role? I would not want to find out. Muhammad has never had to come off the bench or play a role other than the guy, the star. Part of the reason for that is he's been exposed for being a full year older than he previously let on. His physical maturity relative to his competition allowed him to be a beast in high school, just a man-child on the boards, because he was literally a man among boys at that level. That utter dominance was not apparent in college, and he doesn't have that much physical development left to do.

And of course, you can't dismiss the trust factor. His dad's fraud allegation aside, who walks around saying they are a year younger in basketball? This isn't a baseball player from the Dominican Republic trying to get off the island to make a better life, it's a kid man from a stable two-parent home who appears to have intentionally misled recruiters and scouts.

I would pass.

[Sully7]

Noel weighs 190 pounds with a torn a ACL and a history of injuries (growth plate in high school).  He certainly can play D, was growing in all areas when he went down on a hustle play, but I would call him multidimensional.

Mcklemore has a beautiful stroke and very athletic.  But his D is sub-par, his basketball IQ seems to also be low as he disappears all the time.  He could be great....he also could be out of the league if his jumper isn't falling. 

MCW played in a zone, at the point, with a 6'10 wingspan.  He might be a good one on one defender but that is anyones guess since he hasn't done it since AAU ball.  HIs jumper is awful, and he very passive at times on the floor.  He is a solid passer and his size is intriguing.

[Sully7]

.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Chad Ford reporting that Dennis Schroeder has no interest in being stashed and then specifically says that we aren't interested in him for this reason.  I think this came out a few hours ago but I didn't see it mentioned in this thread.  I am guessing we get Adams

[lightspeed5]

Adams is horrendous and uncoordinated.

[syfy9]

Adams is horrendous and uncoordinated.

I agree on that. I don't like Adams at all.

While I don't like Shabazz either, at least he has a competent NBA skill and is still one of the better scorers in the draft. Adams has none of this - he only gets drafted because of his physical tools. Little to no game whatsoever.