Is Rajon Rondo a HoFer?

[Moranis]

Did someone on this thread suggest that (Rondo was already a HoF worthy star in 2009)?

I think I missed that.

I certainly don't see that suggested in Juneauz comment.

Is there a point to your comment?  Are you just creating a straw man for fun?

I like creating straw men. The ability to successfully defeat a straw man argument is the first sign you're on to something. But I digress.

In any case, people challenged my Claim that Rondo was but a role player at least up to the 2008-09 season. I just wanted to point out that the difference between that year's Rondo and this year's Vasquez is pretty much not having three go-to players on the roster.

  Obviously having three go-to players on the roster with you will cause your stats to decrease. People always claim that Rondo having great teammates makes him more productive when the opposite is true *much* more often than not.

It will diminish certain stats, like say scoring, but certain stats will increase, you know like assists.

  Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'd guess that PP/RA/KG combined for more assists than any 2-3-4 combination other than LeBron and Wade over the last 4-5 years. Rondo giving the ball to KG or PP is much more likely to result in another pass than a shot compared to other forwards on other teams. Look a Chris Paul and Steve Nash, clearly they aren't racking up more assists than they would on worse teams when they controlled the offense more than they do.

Nash's 2 highest assist years were on teams that won 61 and 62 games. 

Paul's highest assist year was the 07-08 Hornets that won 56 games.  His next best was the following year for the Hornets team that won 49 games.  The Clippers won a higher percentage of games this year as opposed to last year, Paul's assist numbers increased.

Generally assists increase from the PG position the better the team is.  That is not always the case, but is generally the case.

[kozlodoev]

Just for the record, I really didn't mean to capitalize "claim". 

[kozlodoev]

Did someone on this thread suggest that (Rondo was already a HoF worthy star in 2009)?

I think I missed that.

I certainly don't see that suggested in Juneauz comment.

Is there a point to your comment?  Are you just creating a straw man for fun?

I like creating straw men. The ability to successfully defeat a straw man argument is the first sign you're on to something. But I digress.

In any case, people challenged my Claim that Rondo was but a role player at least up to the 2008-09 season. I just wanted to point out that the difference between that year's Rondo and this year's Vasquez is pretty much not having three go-to players on the roster.

And going deep in the playoffs and being a star in the playoffs. Yeah there's that little difference too.

Yeah, that argument would work great for Steve Nash in his Phoneix days. For Rajon Rondo, comfortably flanked by three superior players, not so much.

[Spicoli]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

[BballTim]

Did someone on this thread suggest that (Rondo was already a HoF worthy star in 2009)?

I think I missed that.

I certainly don't see that suggested in Juneauz comment.

Is there a point to your comment?  Are you just creating a straw man for fun?

I like creating straw men. The ability to successfully defeat a straw man argument is the first sign you're on to something. But I digress.

In any case, people challenged my Claim that Rondo was but a role player at least up to the 2008-09 season. I just wanted to point out that the difference between that year's Rondo and this year's Vasquez is pretty much not having three go-to players on the roster.

  Obviously having three go-to players on the roster with you will cause your stats to decrease. People always claim that Rondo having great teammates makes him more productive when the opposite is true *much* more often than not.

It will diminish certain stats, like say scoring, but certain stats will increase, you know like assists.

  Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'd guess that PP/RA/KG combined for more assists than any 2-3-4 combination other than LeBron and Wade over the last 4-5 years. Rondo giving the ball to KG or PP is much more likely to result in another pass than a shot compared to other forwards on other teams. Look a Chris Paul and Steve Nash, clearly they aren't racking up more assists than they would on worse teams when they controlled the offense more than they do.

Nash's 2 highest assist years were on teams that won 61 and 62 games. 

Paul's highest assist year was the 07-08 Hornets that won 56 games.  His next best was the following year for the Hornets team that won 49 games.  The Clippers won a higher percentage of games this year as opposed to last year, Paul's assist numbers increased.

Generally assists increase from the PG position the better the team is.  That is not always the case, but is generally the case.

  Chris Paul's highest assist years were the years when he scored the most and had the highest usage rate. That's a sign of worse teammates, not better.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

I say not yet.

If we assume that he will follow this kind of pattern the rest of his career, scoring 12-16 points and avergaing 10 or more assists a season, racking up triple doubles every season and showing up big in the playoffs, he is on his way.

[BballTim]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

  It would be great if Rondo had Kidd's three point shooting and improved his free throw shooting but there's nothing wrong with the way he runs the offense. I prefer "leads teams on deep playoff runs" to "enjoyable to watch".

[Spicoli]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

  It would be great if Rondo had Kidd's three point shooting and improved his free throw shooting but there's nothing wrong with the way he runs the offense. I prefer "leads teams on deep playoff runs" to "enjoyable to watch".

Playoff Rondo is quite enjoyable to watch because playoff Rondo doesn't hold the ball for 20 seconds waiting for someone to come open. Playoff Rondo also doesn't pass up open layups. It's too bad regular season Rondo doesn't think that way. We get 82 games of boring regular season Rondo with a few spectacular games sprinkled in here and there when he feels like showing up.

[Donoghus]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

  It would be great if Rondo had Kidd's three point shooting and improved his free throw shooting but there's nothing wrong with the way he runs the offense. I prefer "leads teams on deep playoff runs" to "enjoyable to watch".

Playoff Rondo is quite enjoyable to watch because playoff Rondo doesn't hold the ball for 20 seconds waiting for someone to come open. Playoff Rondo also doesn't pass up open layups. It's too bad regular season Rondo doesn't think that way. We get 82 games of boring regular season Rondo with a few spectacular games sprinkled in here and there when he feels like showing up.

I see it more of National TV Rondo v. Comcast SportsNet Rondo. 

[BballTim]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

  It would be great if Rondo had Kidd's three point shooting and improved his free throw shooting but there's nothing wrong with the way he runs the offense. I prefer "leads teams on deep playoff runs" to "enjoyable to watch".

Playoff Rondo is quite enjoyable to watch because playoff Rondo doesn't hold the ball for 20 seconds waiting for someone to come open. Playoff Rondo also doesn't pass up open layups. It's too bad regular season Rondo doesn't think that way. We get 82 games of boring regular season Rondo with a few spectacular games sprinkled in here and there when he feels like showing up.

  No, the criticisms of Rondo during the playoffs are fairly identical to the criticisms of Rondo during the regular season, they're just *more* wrong.

[Moranis]

Did someone on this thread suggest that (Rondo was already a HoF worthy star in 2009)?

I think I missed that.

I certainly don't see that suggested in Juneauz comment.

Is there a point to your comment?  Are you just creating a straw man for fun?

I like creating straw men. The ability to successfully defeat a straw man argument is the first sign you're on to something. But I digress.

In any case, people challenged my Claim that Rondo was but a role player at least up to the 2008-09 season. I just wanted to point out that the difference between that year's Rondo and this year's Vasquez is pretty much not having three go-to players on the roster.

  Obviously having three go-to players on the roster with you will cause your stats to decrease. People always claim that Rondo having great teammates makes him more productive when the opposite is true *much* more often than not.

It will diminish certain stats, like say scoring, but certain stats will increase, you know like assists.

  Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'd guess that PP/RA/KG combined for more assists than any 2-3-4 combination other than LeBron and Wade over the last 4-5 years. Rondo giving the ball to KG or PP is much more likely to result in another pass than a shot compared to other forwards on other teams. Look a Chris Paul and Steve Nash, clearly they aren't racking up more assists than they would on worse teams when they controlled the offense more than they do.

Nash's 2 highest assist years were on teams that won 61 and 62 games. 

Paul's highest assist year was the 07-08 Hornets that won 56 games.  His next best was the following year for the Hornets team that won 49 games.  The Clippers won a higher percentage of games this year as opposed to last year, Paul's assist numbers increased.

Generally assists increase from the PG position the better the team is.  That is not always the case, but is generally the case.

  Chris Paul's highest assist years were the years when he scored the most and had the highest usage rate. That's a sign of worse teammates, not better.

Except that he had plenty good teammates those two years in West and Peja.  They were also the two years before he got hurt.  His assist numbers this year are actually his second highest per 36.  Again, he has great teammates.

Assists for PG's generally go up when said PG has better players and plays on better teams.  You've offered nothing even in rebuttal to that statement because you somehow think it hurts your Rondo man love argument.

[Celtics18]

If Rondo tried to pattern his game after Jason Kidd he would be a MUCH better player. Jason Kidd has turned himself into a deadly 3 point shooter to go along with his assist making and high IQ. He can also shoot the free throw well, and doesn't hold the ball for an eternity waiting for someone to come open for an assist. Please Rondo, pattern your game after Jason Kidd and you will be a much more enjoyable player to watch.

  It would be great if Rondo had Kidd's three point shooting and improved his free throw shooting but there's nothing wrong with the way he runs the offense. I prefer "leads teams on deep playoff runs" to "enjoyable to watch".

Playoff Rondo is quite enjoyable to watch because playoff Rondo doesn't hold the ball for 20 seconds waiting for someone to come open. Playoff Rondo also doesn't pass up open layups. It's too bad regular season Rondo doesn't think that way. We get 82 games of boring regular season Rondo with a few spectacular games sprinkled in here and there when he feels like showing up.

I love the "holds the ball for 20 seconds" comments that I consistently read on here.  If that happens, it's maybe once or twice a game at the end of quarters. 

I'm sure everyone would agree, though, that the offense is at its best when we are able to get into it early in the shot clock and either get dribble penetration or get the ball moving.  However, when a big part of the offensive game plan is to get guys open with the help of off the ball screens, of course the offense will stall if those guys don't get open quickly. 

[D.o.s.]

Re: More Assists with better teammates.

The guys over at Bullets Forever did some really interesting analysis at the end of last year. It started with an article called "John Wall's Missed Assist Tracker"

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/2/27/2827243/john-wall-missed-assist-tracker-washington-wizards

And finished with, you guessed it, the "Rajon Rondo Missed Assist Tracker"
http://www.bulletsforever.com/2012/3/2/2838291/rajon-rondo-missed-assist-tracker-john-wall

The takeaway from the comparison was that:

Rondo's Boston teammates convert 55.9 percent of his assist chances into actual assists, while Wall's Wizards convert only 43.9 percent of his chances.

That was for last year. It would be interesting to see how Rondo's assist chances this year compared.

[edwardjkasche]

If he were to retire today, ABSOLUTELY NOT.  In the history of the game, very few 27-year-olds could claim they were already locks for the HOF.

Rondo has not done enough in his seven seasons to warrant inclusion in a group that includes only 150 or so of the best players in the history of the sport (many of them from the international/women's/college game).

Things working against him:

- He is not considered the top PG in the league, and there is argument to him not being a top-5 PG in the league.  I know Boston fans will say otherwise, but Boston fans don't vote for the HOF. 

- He has never been considered the leader of his team for a full season.  This was supposed to be his first season as team leader, and it didn't start well, and ended with him injured.

- He has never finished in the top-8 in the MVP vote.

- He has only one championship, and was not one of the top-3 players on that team.

Things working for him:

- He has one championship (but so do a lot of role players; Mario Chalmers is about to have two).

- He has four All Star appearances, and though I think these shouldn't count because they're more a popularity contest than talent contest, Rondo should add a few more to his belt before retiring.

- He has made two first-team (and two second-team) All Defensive teams.

- He led the league in assists twice.

- He led the league in steals once.

However, Rondo's remaining career is all dependent on the Celtics staying in contention.  Who knows what kind of player Rondo will be on a lottery team or how he'll mesh with a new team if he's traded at some point.  Remember, he's played his whole career as second fiddle to a bunch of Hall of Famers.  He has many years left in this league and he has a lot to prove if he wants to be considered a Hall of Famer.  Look at all the work KG and Pierce have done over their loooooong careers, and Pierce was barely considered a Hall of Famer until the past few seasons.

Look how long it took Dennis Johnson to get into the HOF.  Look at how Reggie Miller was passed over, and he was the all-time leader in 3-pts at the time.  Mark Jackson is third all-time in career assists, and can't even sniff the HOF. 

By the way, Basketball Reference has an interesting little Hall of Fame Probability Meter for active players, and Rondo currently sits at #26.  That sounds great, except look at some of the names in front of him - Billups, Arenas, McGrady, Stoudemire... and the player directly behind him is Joe Johnson. 

[BballTim]

Did someone on this thread suggest that (Rondo was already a HoF worthy star in 2009)?

I think I missed that.

I certainly don't see that suggested in Juneauz comment.

Is there a point to your comment?  Are you just creating a straw man for fun?

I like creating straw men. The ability to successfully defeat a straw man argument is the first sign you're on to something. But I digress.

In any case, people challenged my Claim that Rondo was but a role player at least up to the 2008-09 season. I just wanted to point out that the difference between that year's Rondo and this year's Vasquez is pretty much not having three go-to players on the roster.

  Obviously having three go-to players on the roster with you will cause your stats to decrease. People always claim that Rondo having great teammates makes him more productive when the opposite is true *much* more often than not.

It will diminish certain stats, like say scoring, but certain stats will increase, you know like assists.

  Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'd guess that PP/RA/KG combined for more assists than any 2-3-4 combination other than LeBron and Wade over the last 4-5 years. Rondo giving the ball to KG or PP is much more likely to result in another pass than a shot compared to other forwards on other teams. Look a Chris Paul and Steve Nash, clearly they aren't racking up more assists than they would on worse teams when they controlled the offense more than they do.

Nash's 2 highest assist years were on teams that won 61 and 62 games. 

Paul's highest assist year was the 07-08 Hornets that won 56 games.  His next best was the following year for the Hornets team that won 49 games.  The Clippers won a higher percentage of games this year as opposed to last year, Paul's assist numbers increased.

Generally assists increase from the PG position the better the team is.  That is not always the case, but is generally the case.

  Chris Paul's highest assist years were the years when he scored the most and had the highest usage rate. That's a sign of worse teammates, not better.

Except that he had plenty good teammates those two years in West and Peja.  They were also the two years before he got hurt.  His assist numbers this year are actually his second highest per 36.  Again, he has great teammates.

Assists for PG's generally go up when said PG has better players and plays on better teams.  You've offered nothing even in rebuttal to that statement because you somehow think it hurts your Rondo man love argument.

  That's because you're ignoring the bulk of my post. The 2-3-4 starters on those NOH teams combined to average about 4 or 5 assists a game compared to probably 10 or so for the big three. CP3 was more the focal point on those teams than any other time in his career. He had some decent scorers with him but I think you'd be solidly in the minority if you called them "go-to scorers". The same would hold true for Nash, who obviously wasn't racking up the assists playing with someone like Kobe (which isn't overly different than playing with someone like PP).