2013 Patriots Football

[Cman]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

[Cman]

With that, if Hernandez was still here and if Gronk was healthy I doubt this offense would skip a beat with Amendola in place of Welker.

I think you're underrating Welker.  The guy was catching 115 - 120 balls per year.  He was the biggest single part of the offense, and replacing him with lesser players would have stung no matter who else was on the team.

Agreed with the underrating part.
He was the second biggest part of the offense (after Brady). I put Gronk third, bc have to factor in the injury issues.

[BleedGreen1989]

With that, if Hernandez was still here and if Gronk was healthy I doubt this offense would skip a beat with Amendola in place of Welker.

I think you're underrating Welker.  The guy was catching 115 - 120 balls per year.  He was the biggest single part of the offense, and replacing him with lesser players would have stung no matter who else was on the team.

Agreed with the underrating part.
He was the second biggest part of the offense (after Brady). I put Gronk third, bc have to factor in the injury issues.

I have confidence that Amendola and Eddleman could make up for Welker if the tight ends were playing.

[Eja117]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

Well if I'm wrong and our players are good because BB is a good drafter then why are we losing? Why the drop off? It would have to be coaching, right?

[Rondo2287]

With that, if Hernandez was still here and if Gronk was healthy I doubt this offense would skip a beat with Amendola in place of Welker.

I think you're underrating Welker.  The guy was catching 115 - 120 balls per year.  He was the biggest single part of the offense, and replacing him with lesser players would have stung no matter who else was on the team.

Agreed with the underrating part.
He was the second biggest part of the offense (after Brady). I put Gronk third, bc have to factor in the injury issues.

I put Gronk ahead of Welker.  I think if the pats had a healthy gronk instead of welker in that championship game last year they would have beat the ravens. 

Gronk is the best player at his position in the league, and more importantly is a huge mismatch for any defense.  Welker was probably the best slot receiver, but we saw that hernandez was able to fill that role nicely. 

[Rondo2287]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

Well if I'm wrong and our players are good because BB is a good drafter then why are we losing? Why the drop off? It would have to be coaching, right?

I would say, one pro-bowl caliber TE in Jail, one All pro TE injured, one thousand yard rusher out with a knee, one talented RB out with a fractured wrist would be why we lost that game.

Also, we aren't "losing" we lost one game.


EDIT: Coaching is part of it though.  Their insitance on putting their most talented RB's in the dog house for fumbling is hurting the offense as a whole.  Yes Bolden hangs on to the ball, but he didnt help the offense move at all.

[CelticG1]

With that, if Hernandez was still here and if Gronk was healthy I doubt this offense would skip a beat with Amendola in place of Welker.

I think you're underrating Welker.  The guy was catching 115 - 120 balls per year.  He was the biggest single part of the offense, and replacing him with lesser players would have stung no matter who else was on the team.

Agreed with the underrating part.
He was the second biggest part of the offense (after Brady). I put Gronk third, bc have to factor in the injury issues.

I put Gronk ahead of Welker.  I think if the pats had a healthy gronk instead of welker in that championship game last year they would have beat the ravens. 

Gronk is the best player at his position in the league, and more importantly is a huge mismatch for any defense.  Welker was probably the best slot receiver, but we saw that hernandez was able to fill that role nicely.

Can't you also just look at how much the slot receivers get paid in general?

Clearly they are not valued even close to other receivers and these top tight ends.

You can say Welker is more healthy or whatever but pound for pound Amendola and or edleman when healthy will get pretty much the same production.

Wasn't edelman setting a record through the first 4 games with 7+ catches in each game? Guys makigng less than a million bucks. Look what Woodhead is starting to do in San Diego.

[Neurotic Guy]

Wrong thread - sorry.

[Fan from VT]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

Well if I'm wrong and our players are good because BB is a good drafter then why are we losing? Why the drop off? It would have to be coaching, right?

I would say, one pro-bowl caliber TE in Jail, one All pro TE injured, one thousand yard rusher out with a knee, one talented RB out with a fractured wrist would be why we lost that game.

Also, we aren't "losing" we lost one game.


EDIT: Coaching is part of it though.  Their insitance on putting their most talented RB's in the dog house for fumbling is hurting the offense as a whole.  Yes Bolden hangs on to the ball, but he didnt help the offense move at all.

Terrible coaching yesterday

-Punt on 4th and short in no-man's land (around the 50)
-1st and goal from the 1, not a single qb sneak (brady something like 39-41 on 3rd/4th and 1 on sneaks)
-FG on 4th and goal from the 2. Covered by Barnwell (ironically about Atlanta botching this scenario against the Pats), but to kick there you have to assume a. that you will get full stop on D to even have a chance to tie and if your defense fails, and if your D gives up a FG game over; b. you need at least 1 touchdown anyway, so you are assuming your next time having the ball you will (with less time of the clock) have an easier scoring scenario than one chance 2 yards from the goal line. Look what happened: rains came and their last shot was from 30 yards out. Imagine if they just needed a FG?

Basically, to kick a FG from the 2 yard line when down 10 near the end makes your odds of winning worse but simply delays the certainty of when you lose.

[Cman]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

Well if I'm wrong and our players are good because BB is a good drafter then why are we losing? Why the drop off? It would have to be coaching, right?

Nice try, but the Pats have consistently been one of *the best* teams the past few years, all while drafting late in rounds bc of their winning record.

And if you are referring to this year alone, let me remind of our winning record. And that we have a long way to go yet in the season.

[Eja117]

The problem is that BB the GM hasn't really drafted well overall in a very very long time

I dunno

Last year - Jones, hightower, Dennard
2011 - Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Cannon
2010 - Mccourty, Gronk, Spikes, Hernandez, Mesko
2009 - Vollmer and Edelmen (draft was bad)

but the last three years have all been pretty good in terms of getting some quality players/difference makers.

I look at this all pretty negatively.

Jones is great. Hightower is ok. I'm waiting to see if Dennard goes to jail. Solder is ok. Vereen, Ridley, and Cannon have their moments, but have yet to really impress me. McCourty is no big deal. Gronk is fragile. Spkies is ok. Hernandez is a failure. Mesko was cut. Vollmer is very good. Edelmen is a very good 7th rounder.

But you're supposed to draft good players. You're not supposed to swing and miss on soooooo many high picks. Jermaine Cunningham. Ron Brace, Tavon Wilson, Wheatley, Ras I Dowling, Kevin O'Connell, Chad Jackson,  Rohan Davey, Brandon Meriwether, Bethel Johnson, Lawrence Maroney, Ben Watson, Taylor Price, Darius Butler, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Rich Orhenberger, Shawn Crable, David Thomas, Garett Mills, Gus Scott........all these guys are 4th rounders or higher. Most of them should be contributing more than they are/did.

Basically there is an entire team roster out there of missed high draft picks.

Okay, I'll bite.

BB is a good drafter. To convince me otherwise, i.e.: to convince me he is not, you have to show me that half the NFL is better than him at drafting, while accounting for the place in which each team picks every year.

That should keep you busy for a while.

Well if I'm wrong and our players are good because BB is a good drafter then why are we losing? Why the drop off? It would have to be coaching, right?

Nice try, but the Pats have consistently been one of *the best* teams the past few years, all while drafting late in rounds bc of their winning record.

And if you are referring to this year alone, let me remind of our winning record. And that we have a long way to go yet in the season.

We haven't beaten a team with a winning record yet. Two of the wins were against rookie QBs. There has been nothing impressive about this season. There have been occasional impressive moments...like when the defense held strong in Atlanta...right after a critical fumble by Brady.

I get that there have been injuries. But when you draft injury prone guys...

[PhoSita]

This thing with Gronkowski is becoming ridiculous.  He's not cleared to play yet because of the arm that he injured almost a year ago?

Man, what a disheartening season for the Patriots.  I know the team is 4-1, but I don't trust this team to beat any of the upper echelon teams in the league.  When I compare the state of the roster now to a year ago, things look much less hopeful for the future. 

I don't think I'll even watch the game on Sunday . . . they're gonna get creamed.

[Bahku]

This thing with Gronkowski is becoming ridiculous.  He's not cleared to play yet because of the arm that he injured almost a year ago?

Man, what a disheartening season for the Patriots.  I know the team is 4-1, but I don't trust this team to beat any of the upper echelon teams in the league.  When I compare the state of the roster now to a year ago, things look much less hopeful for the future. 

I don't think I'll even watch the game on Sunday . . . they're gonna get creamed.

I agree, (TP) ... I think there's a lot they're not telling us about the Gronkowski situation, and it's probably not anything we want to know, unfortunately.

I'm not counting on anything at this point, so when he shows, he shows, and hopefully it will change their fortune for the better.

Thing is about this Sunday, it's usually the games you think they're going to lose that they end up winning somehow, and then they'll lose to Jacksonville or the Bucs.

[Eja117]

The Pats change the Gronk story almost as much as Doc changes his and almost as much as the Celts kept changing KG's knee situation.

I guess pro teams in New England think it's ok to either lie or be incompetent when it comes to med stuff and explaining the issue.

Who messed this up? Was it "sources"?  I know it wasn't Belichik. He wouldn't tell you what color socks he was wearing if he was sitting in front of you wearing shorts. "Well we don't really have to put the color of socks on the weekly report so I won't be going into that. You should read the report. We put the information on the report that needs to be there. Various anti-social statements. Various obvious statements."

Bill Belichik is probably the only person in the history of time that didn't get the job at the NSA because during the interview they said "Tell us a little about yourself Bill" and he responded "Well I put on the resume what I needed to".

Could you speak in more than one note Bill? Like instead of speaking like a robot whose vocal responses were poorly programmed, do you think you could put enough effort into it that you at least sound almost like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man?  "Beep. Does not compute".

[Bahku]

Wow ... watched the locker room interview of Gronk last night, and he's the best tap dancer I've seen in a long time.

He was asked the question about this Sunday in about five different ways, and never answered.

He did say, (about twice as many times), that he's "working hard, just taking it day-by-day" ... talk about politicians and avoidance!

Bill has clearly been teaching the kid the art, and he's got it down 

(It's on Patriots Now for those who want to watch the show).

My vote: No way he's playing this week ... hope I'm wrong, (though I want him 100% when he does return).