2013 Patriots Football

[Rondo2287]

The nfl has now edited the article to remove the part about the player needing to be off the LOS.   Shady

[Cman]

Strange call. Oh well. Biggest positive was that no Patriots got injured.

[Eja117]

"Team B players not on the line of scrimmage at the snap cannot push players on the line of scrimmage into the offensive formation. Penalty: For unnecessary roughness, loss of 15 yards from the previous spot."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000237712/article/new-nfl-rules-overloading-line-restriction-will-protect-linemen

If only Chris Jones was on the line of scrimmage at the snap of the ball. Oh wait...

dumbest rule ever. It's football. You're supposed to push. Another reason the college game is better

[D.o.s.]

You're right, the outcome of a game should never hinge on questionable calls invoking suspicious rules.

[Rondo2287]

You're right, the outcome of a game should never hinge on questionable calls invoking suspicious rules.

The outcome of the game shouldnt hinge on questionable calls for a penalty that in no way would alter the outcome of the play.  Its not like the patriots even got an advantage, nobody on the jets o-line even fell down.

I'd be curious to see if this happened on any PAT or less influential kick during the course of yesterdays game and went uncalled. 

[Fafnir]

The Bears did that with Urlacher/Peppers for years, strangely enough Peppers blocked several kicks during that time frame too.

I think no advantage is a charitable reading of it, if it gave no advantage why do teams do it?

This was the first time it was called but apparently the NFL has been putting up examples of calls that should have been made out their in the ref prep videos.

The same stuff got said about the leaping penalty, the lining up over the long snappers head, etc.

[Rondo2287]

The Bears did that with Urlacher/Peppers for years, strangely enough Peppers blocked several kicks during that time frame too.

I think no advantage is a charitable reading of it, if it gave no advantage why do teams do it?

This was the first time it was called but apparently the NFL has been putting up examples of calls that should have been made out their in the ref prep videos.

The same stuff got said about the leaping penalty, the lining up over the long snappers head, etc.

Well I meant no advantage on this particular play, not ever. 

but also from what I understand almost all of the videos sent to teams were examples of a player at the second level pushing the player on the line.  Which is why belichick was saying the push didnt come from the second level and was screaming on the sidelines that Jones was "On the line of scrimmage!"

My only point is that I would be shocked if the pats only did it once this game, it seems like something they practice and employ often, Jones even said it was premeditated.  Why not throw the flag on a PAT earlier in the game and put both teams on notice rather than a 56 yard game winning field goal attemept in OT.

[Fafnir]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/20/nfl-com-article-contributes-to-confusion-regarding-rule-that-burned-pats/

The second level stuff likely came from the NFL website, but the rulebook and rule itself are clear and don't mention the second level/line of scrimmage issue.

And as for your speculation on selective enforcement, I'd have to see some evidence of that. But that's a hollow excuse in the end, of course on a game winning FG attempt the officials are going to be more vigilant than on a PAT. The Pats players were surely rushing harder than on a typical PAT after all.

[CelticG1]

Let the players decide especially when on that particular play it gave no advantage whatsoever


They call something like that in the superbowl and it would probably be the worst call in the history of the sport and ruin the entire game. Thank god they didn't do this on an even higher stage.

This would be like the NBA calling a defensive 3 secnd technical in a tie game with 10 seconds left. Yeah its a rule but don't act like making that call is justifiable in any sense

[D.o.s.]

Let the players decide especially when on that particular play it gave no advantage whatsoever


They call something like that in the superbowl and it would probably be the worst call in the history of the sport and ruin the entire game. Thank god they didn't do this on an even higher stage.

This would be like the NBA calling a defensive 3 secnd technical in a tie game with 10 seconds left. Yeah its a rule but don't act like making that call is justifiable in any sense

[Rondo2287]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/20/nfl-com-article-contributes-to-confusion-regarding-rule-that-burned-pats/

The second level stuff likely came from the NFL website, but the rulebook and rule itself are clear and don't mention the second level/line of scrimmage issue.

And as for your speculation on selective enforcement, I'd have to see some evidence of that. But that's a hollow excuse in the end, of course on a game winning FG attempt the officials are going to be more vigilant than on a PAT. The Pats players were surely rushing harder than on a typical PAT after all.

I 100% disagree with you.  It would make a ton more sense for the refs to alert the teams to enforcement of the rule on a play where the penalty is 99.9% going to be declined or enforced on the ensuing kickoff rather than calling it for the first time all year on a 56 yarder in OT. 

make teams aware of what your looking for without giftwrapping the game for one team.

[Fafnir]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/20/nfl-com-article-contributes-to-confusion-regarding-rule-that-burned-pats/

The second level stuff likely came from the NFL website, but the rulebook and rule itself are clear and don't mention the second level/line of scrimmage issue.

And as for your speculation on selective enforcement, I'd have to see some evidence of that. But that's a hollow excuse in the end, of course on a game winning FG attempt the officials are going to be more vigilant than on a PAT. The Pats players were surely rushing harder than on a typical PAT after all.

I 100% disagree with you.  It would make a ton more sense for the refs to alert the teams to enforcement of the rule on a play where the penalty is 99.9% going to be declined or enforced on the ensuing kickoff rather than calling it for the first time all year on a 56 yarder in OT. 

make teams aware of what your looking for without giftwrapping the game for one team.

Did the Pats do it on PATs? Because until you can confirm that your argument is makes zero sense.

Also I'll say this, its not the Refs faults the Pats didn't know the rules and deliberately and knowingly committed a foul in an attempt to gain an advantage. I hate it when holding doesn't get called when refs try to "guess" whether the d-lineman would have gotten there. Same thing here.

[Rondo2287]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/10/20/nfl-com-article-contributes-to-confusion-regarding-rule-that-burned-pats/

The second level stuff likely came from the NFL website, but the rulebook and rule itself are clear and don't mention the second level/line of scrimmage issue.

And as for your speculation on selective enforcement, I'd have to see some evidence of that. But that's a hollow excuse in the end, of course on a game winning FG attempt the officials are going to be more vigilant than on a PAT. The Pats players were surely rushing harder than on a typical PAT after all.

I 100% disagree with you.  It would make a ton more sense for the refs to alert the teams to enforcement of the rule on a play where the penalty is 99.9% going to be declined or enforced on the ensuing kickoff rather than calling it for the first time all year on a 56 yarder in OT. 

make teams aware of what your looking for without giftwrapping the game for one team.

Did the Pats do it on PATs? Because until you can confirm that your argument is makes zero sense.

Also I'll say this, its not the Refs faults the Pats didn't know the rules and deliberately and knowingly committed a foul in an attempt to gain an advantage. I hate it when holding doesn't get called when refs try to "guess" whether the d-lineman would have gotten there. Same thing here.

Mike reiss on twitter just told me the pats didnt try a similar push on other kicks, so thats that.

[Rondo2287]

there is this though

Mike Reiss‏@MikeReiss14m
(1 of 2) Went back & watched the prior 4 field goals to Folk's 56-yarder in Patriots-Jets game to see if same technique was used/not called.

(2 of 2) Only thing that showed up was that Jets' Quinton Coples had less egregious push on Gostkowski's 44-yard field goal in 4th quarter.

Mike Reiss‏@MikeReiss10m
On play, Coples lined up in same spot at C. Jones did. Coples looped behind player to his right. One-handed push. Player flips over snapper.

Mike Reiss‏@MikeReiss5m
At same time, would imagine special teams coach Scott O'Brien lines those 2 plays up and asks, "How is one a penalty and other isn't?"

[D.o.s.]

Via Deadspin.

But here's the important part, which has gotten lost in the controversy: A post on NFL.com is not the NFL rulebook. It's just a news story, written by a fallible editor, and since it was published before the rule was officially passed, it did not have the final wording accurate. (Same goes for the accompanying video by league VP of officiating Dean Blandino—it was recorded before the final wording was settled on.)

Once everyone started citing the (incorrect) story, NFL.com went back corrected it. That's when the conspiracy theory began. But the actual rule never changed. Here's how 9.1.3(b)(2) reads, and has always read:

(b) When Team A presents a field-goal or Try Kick formation:
(2) Team B players cannot push teammates on the line of scrimmage into the offensive formation.

There is not, nor has there ever been, a mention of the "second level." Whether Jones was on the line of scrimmage or not is irrelevant. All that matters is that Svitek was on the line of scrimmage, and that Jones pushed him. He was, and he did.

The rule was interpreted correctly (except for referee Jerome Boger announcing unsportsmanlike conduct; it should have been unnecessary roughness). Chris Jones knew he screwed up:

"Yeah, it was something we talked about probably during camp and stuff, and it just slipped out of my mind," he said. "So I just, it was just my mistake, nobody else's. I've just got to man up and fix it next time."

Jones knew the rule. The officials knew the rule. (Belichick, by citing an inaccurate news story, all but admitted he didn't know the rule himself.) Complain all you want about a strange penalty that didn't affect the play essentially giving the Jets the game, but there was no chicanery here.

http://deadspin.com/no-the-nfl-did-not-quickly-change-the-rulebook-to-scre-1448994141