If This Is the Jeff Green We're Getting...

[bfrombleacher]

Jeff Green reality check: 17.7/5.9/1.3 per 40, 44.4% FG in 5 games vs. NBA teams this preseason. In 2010-11? 16.4/5.9/1.8, 44.9%.

- John Hollinger on Twitter

What the hell is this guy's deal with Jeff Green? Does he have a problem with Green performing well or something? He thinks he's a hot shot just because he can run some numbers through a machine. What a shame.

Hollinger is a guy who believes deeply in his PER stats, and Jeff Green never really put up the PER to warrant the type of money he got this year. 

As most people have noted, PER does very little to account for defensive contributions, which is really where Green will be big help.

I actually think the Twitter post was something needed around here.  Most of this board is all over Green as the greatest bench player ever, etc. yet when you actually take a step back you realize he is putting up virtually the same numbers he did his last full season when most of this board called him a giant disappointment. 

Only someone with an agenda can claim that Jeff Green's first (partial) season with us was anything similar to what we see right now. He shot less than .300 from the three, and fouled at a career-high rate (4 per 36 mins).

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

So you really don't think he's improved since the last time we saw him? Or are you telling us to manage our expectations because it's the pre-season?

[Moranis]

Jeff Green reality check: 17.7/5.9/1.3 per 40, 44.4% FG in 5 games vs. NBA teams this preseason. In 2010-11? 16.4/5.9/1.8, 44.9%.

- John Hollinger on Twitter

What the hell is this guy's deal with Jeff Green? Does he have a problem with Green performing well or something? He thinks he's a hot shot just because he can run some numbers through a machine. What a shame.

Hollinger is a guy who believes deeply in his PER stats, and Jeff Green never really put up the PER to warrant the type of money he got this year. 

As most people have noted, PER does very little to account for defensive contributions, which is really where Green will be big help.

I actually think the Twitter post was something needed around here.  Most of this board is all over Green as the greatest bench player ever, etc. yet when you actually take a step back you realize he is putting up virtually the same numbers he did his last full season when most of this board called him a giant disappointment. 

Only someone with an agenda can claim that Jeff Green's first (partial) season with us was anything similar to what we see right now. He shot less than .300 from the three, and fouled at a career-high rate (4 per 36 mins).

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

So you really don't think he's improved since the last time we saw him? Or are you telling us to manage our expectations because it's the pre-season?

Both.  It is the preseason which doesn't matter and Jeff Green did not play basketball for over a year because he had a life threatening heart condition.  You just don't magically get better when you unable to play at all.

And let me say this, I have always been on the Jeff Green wasn't nearly as bad as people thought train when we last saw him.  I think he struggled at times with the new offense and system, but firmly believe he was vastly underutilized and not utilized correctly when he was in the game, and despite that still performed fairly well.  He is not a world beater, but could be a great 6th man/ok starter type player on a great team.  That hasn't changed at all.  He is still that  guy though now is struggling with a heart condition and hasn't played in a year.  That will catch up to him and I wouldn't be surprised at all if he goes into the crapper about mid-way through the season because of a lack of conditioning and the physical stress of the season.  He is a great guy to have on the bench, but that is what he is, a bench player, and he is that for a reason.

[indeedproceed]

A bit much for a few pre-season games -- much of it against non-starters.

considering jeff green is a non-starter as well, why is that relevant?

It's relevant because of the expectations and history as a player.

jeff is coming off our bench to play against bench players for the most part.

By your logic, we can't talk about James Harden in the same sentence as starting players, because he is coming off the bench, too.

Manu Ginobli, Jason Terry, Thad Young...

If you're playing 28 minutes + a night, you're playing more than scrubs. And we paid Jeff Green to play more than scrubs.

I'm not really sure I get this obsession with how Wyc and the other owners spend their money.

Mike

That's not the implications I was intending, and it kind of takes the whole debate in another direction.

The point of the matter is that in response to the original point (Jeff Green hasn't played the best competition so far), a point was made that he is a 'bench player' so he will probably play mostly reserves.

And the counterpoint was made that guys like Jason Terry, Manu Ginobli, James Harden, Thad Young, etc.. really invalidate that counter argument.

My response including the money was the highlight just how much the organization was likely expecting when Jeff Green signed that contract, and it is wholly reasonable to expect Green to see lots of time against the other teams' best players.

[BballTim]

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

  I don't really expect his heart condition to impact his play and he's coming into his prime as a player, so I don't agree that he's the exact same player he has been every year. But beyond that I think that even if he's a similar player his role on the team would be different on the Celts than it was with Durant and Westbrook on the court with him, and his production could change because of that.

[guava_wrench]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

So you really don't think he's improved since the last time we saw him? Or are you telling us to manage our expectations because it's the pre-season?

At his age, he is probably improving every year.

Even if pre-season can't tell us anything because opponents, like our team, aren't taking the games that seriously or putting out competitive teams, the games still happened. Green had games where he was able to be more aggressive as Doc has asked him to be and was successful doing so. Many of Green's failures might not have been a lack of ability. They might have been in his head as he tried to do the right play and defer to teammates on a new team of veterans. The preseason can help with that.

He is one of the players on the team more established as a Celtic, even with so few games logged with us. This too can contribute to him performing better.

I think the earlier poster was saying Green was better for us than people give him credit for. Considering the team seemed disappointed in what they got from him and he seems to admit not being in sync, I agree more with the general sentiment.

[Moranis]

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

  I don't really expect his heart condition to impact his play and he's coming into his prime as a player, so I don't agree that he's the exact same player he has been every year. But beyond that I think that even if he's a similar player his role on the team would be different on the Celts than it was with Durant and Westbrook on the court with him, and his production could change because of that.

First, I don't think his heart condition will affect his play much (as long as it doesn't come back), but I do think it will affect his conditioning as he hasn't played in a year for medical reasons.  You don't just come back from that in shape to last a full season. 

Second, I agree his role will be different, but that doesn't mean it will be more suited for his skill set.  Green is a fairly solid all around player, but I believe he is best in a secondary role when he is playing with great scorers.  That scenario seems to match his skill set the best.  Don't get me wrong, I think Jeff Green will be a very strong bench player and probably will be the Celtics best player on the bench, I just don't think his production on a per minute basis will be all that much different than every single other year in the league.  Players just don't wake up one day and become awesome.  Jeff Green has been essentially the same type of player every year he has been in the league.  He hasn't really gotten appreciably better and thus no one should think he is all of a sudden going to take a huge leap.  That just doesn't happen. 

[kozlodoev]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

He was viewed largely as a failure mostly because he failed to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes on a team where we had plenty of minutes behind Garnett and Pierce.

[scaryjerry]

He has been outstanding but my guess is as soon as the regular season starts we will see him take a step back and be in an early season "slump" although I sure hope not!
 
People thinking this somehow justifies the perk trade? sure id rather have Green now but it wouldve been nice to win the title a few years ago and gotten Green in free agency...you know considering we offered him more then anyone anyways. He did virtually nothing for us for 2 years.

the c's were over the cap so no they couldn't have signed Green. Perk wasn't getting us past miami, can we stop this delusion that perk was going to win us a championship?

exactly.  Boston was not going to beat Miami that year, Perk or no Perk.  It just wasn't going to happen.

You're right...I don't think that was a guarantee by any stretch but I think that trade ruined that year and we had a better shot before the trade...water under the bridge now because as I said id currently rather have green...but when Dallas beat the Heat that year i find it absurd to think we couldnt have when we were the best team in the east pre-trade and a disaster of a club with no chemistry after

[CelticG1]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

He was viewed largely as a failure mostly because he failed to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes on a team where we had plenty of minutes behind Garnett and Pierce.

I wouldn't say plenty of minutes. KG and Baby completely sealed up PF minutes so really he only had minutes behind Pierce which given the importance of those games down the stretch Pierce was gonna be playing at least 35 a game.

[bfrombleacher]

He has been outstanding but my guess is as soon as the regular season starts we will see him take a step back and be in an early season "slump" although I sure hope not!
 
People thinking this somehow justifies the perk trade? sure id rather have Green now but it wouldve been nice to win the title a few years ago and gotten Green in free agency...you know considering we offered him more then anyone anyways. He did virtually nothing for us for 2 years.

the c's were over the cap so no they couldn't have signed Green. Perk wasn't getting us past miami, can we stop this delusion that perk was going to win us a championship?

exactly.  Boston was not going to beat Miami that year, Perk or no Perk.  It just wasn't going to happen.

You're right...I don't think that was a guarantee by any stretch but I think that trade ruined that year and we had a better shot before the trade...water under the bridge now because as I said id currently rather have green

Everyone keeps forgetting the Krstic of it all.

Insane how much we've been plagued by injuries. Krstic was, what, 27?

[Sizzlack]

Look I'm glad Jeff Green is seemingly healthy and he will be a good player off the bench for the Celtics this year, but he is essentially the exact same player he has been pretty much every single year he has been in the league, you know except now he has a heart condition.

  I don't really expect his heart condition to impact his play and he's coming into his prime as a player, so I don't agree that he's the exact same player he has been every year. But beyond that I think that even if he's a similar player his role on the team would be different on the Celts than it was with Durant and Westbrook on the court with him, and his production could change because of that.

He was interviewed early in the preseason and said the Doctors have told him he stands no greater a risk of re-injury or further complications than any athlete coming back off ACL surgery.

It's a difficult surgery with a long recovery (they basically re-wire you, basic functions have to be relearned, muscle memories recreated) but once you get past that hump, long term implication are no worse than any other major surgery (ACL, Tommy johns, etc...)

[Sizzlack]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

He was viewed largely as a failure mostly because he failed to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes on a team where we had plenty of minutes behind Garnett and Pierce.

I wouldn't say plenty of minutes. KG and Baby completely sealed up PF minutes so really he only had minutes behind Pierce which given the importance of those games down the stretch Pierce was gonna be playing at least 35 a game.

Valid point, Baby was the proven commodity there. This year is completely different, he has back up minutes at the 3, but with KG at center now, it makes Green the go to guy at the 4 when Doc wants to go small (which I will bet my house on him doing often to close games.) His role is clearer, more defined, and he's more confident in what this team needs from him. That's what we're seeing in his play, and I fully expect it to continue.

Hollinger is going to eat his words.

[Moranis]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

He was viewed largely as a failure mostly because he failed to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes on a team where we had plenty of minutes behind Garnett and Pierce.

Doc didn't play him, that isn't Green's fault and with Pierce playing 38.4 mpg and Garnett playing 36.4 mpg and then add in JO and Baby's combined 43 mpg, where exactly was Green supposed to get minutes from?

All that said, Green was essentially on a per minute basis the same player he was on the Thunder and the same player he has been his entire career during his first partial year in Boston.  He isn't going to magically become a HOFer after sitting out a year.

[Chris]

He shot 44% from three in the post season with Boston.  Yet he was a failure in the post season as well if you ask around this board.

He was viewed largely as a failure mostly because he failed to stay on the floor for more than 20 minutes on a team where we had plenty of minutes behind Garnett and Pierce.

Doc didn't play him, that isn't Green's fault and with Pierce playing 38.4 mpg and Garnett playing 36.4 mpg and then add in JO and Baby's combined 43 mpg, where exactly was Green supposed to get minutes from?

All that said, Green was essentially on a per minute basis the same player he was on the Thunder and the same player he has been his entire career during his first partial year in Boston.  He isn't going to magically become a HOFer after sitting out a year.

Green also didn't give Doc a whole lot of reason to play him.  He basically looked like a deer in headlights for most of the time he was on the court.

But who can blame him?  It is tough enough to learn a system midseason, but he was coming in with tremendous pressure, onto a cancerous team that just traded one of their most popular players for him.  And he had to learn to share with 3 future hall of famers and Rondo.  It was a nearly impossible situation.

But like you said, his numbers ended up being close to what he had done in OKC, despite those struggles, which I think points to how well he fit in the Boston system, and how much guys like Rondo, KG, and Pierce make other players better.

So, I think it was very reasonable to assume Green was going to be significantly better this year (if healthy), just from having time to learn the system, and find how he fits in with the other alpha dogs.

But I also agree that to expect him to be a superstar is too much.  But I think we are seeing him come closer to the potential which made him the #5 pick in the draft.

[Moranis]

So, I think it was very reasonable to assume Green was going to be significantly better this year (if healthy), just from having time to learn the system, and find how he fits in with the other alpha dogs.

I totally disagree with this.  Players just don't magically go from decent starters to All Stars overnight.  In fact I can't think of a single time in history a player made a significant jump in output this far into his career.  I honestly can't think of a single time where a player went from 4 years of fairly steady play to a 5th year with a massive jump in output, production, etc. without a major upswing in minutes (which isn't the case here).  Players just don't magically get awesome out of the blue.