Courtney Lee the Joe Johnson stopper

[rmitchell222003]

they are. just avery johnson. controlling their offense they he is a defensive coach

[SHAQATTACK]

Lee had a breakout game as a Celtic, he finally got his mojo ,  he was great on both ends of the court , his spirt , energy , defense, fast breaks...he had it all going on against the nets. 

Everybody looked good , JET, SULLY  , KG, PP , Rondo,

if we can just get Darko fixed before the HEAT , it will be a bar fight.

[crimson_stallion]

Yeah, as with most of the comments above I think Joe Johnson has pretty much stopped himself.

I always thought he was an incredibly overrated player, and I still do.

Last season when Hortford went down, it was naturally expected that JJ would step up and lead he Hawks, but he never really did.  Instead Josh Smith really stepped up and put the team on his back.  Against us in the playoffs, Joe was pretty mediocre to say the least.

That said, not taking anything away from Lee.  He really played great against the Nets and he's fitting in just great.  He's a real high effort guy and I love that, especially on defense. 

He's no Avery Bradely in terms of on-ball pressure, but he's played some really nice defense regardless so far.

[pearljammer10]

It appears that father time is the best "Joe Johnson stopper" out there

Yeah, there arent many in the league that cant stop Joe Johnson at this point. I think he is extremely overrated amognst the league.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Don't understand all the posts insinuating that Johnson's performance against Lee was due to Johnson's diminishing play, when he's actually be having a very good preseason, shooting at a high percentage and scoring well.

That game against the Celtics was by far his worst showing so far in the preseason, all of his other ones have been quite good.

So, I'm going to err on the side of Boston's defense, and Courtney Lee on him had just a tad to do with it.

[j804]

Don't understand all the posts insinuating that Johnson's performance against Lee was due to Johnson's diminishing play, when he's actually be having a very good preseason, shooting at a high percentage and scoring well.

That game against the Celtics was by far his worst showing so far in the preseason, all of his other ones have been quite good.

So, I'm going to err on the side of Boston's defense, and Courtney Lee on him had just a tad to do with it.

I was about to say let's give Lee SOME credit

[xmuscularghandix]

Lee is a great guy to put against off-guards who prefer to play 1 on 1... that IS Joe Johnson.

[crimson_stallion]

Don't understand all the posts insinuating that Johnson's performance against Lee was due to Johnson's diminishing play, when he's actually be having a very good preseason, shooting at a high percentage and scoring well.

That game against the Celtics was by far his worst showing so far in the preseason, all of his other ones have been quite good.

So, I'm going to err on the side of Boston's defense, and Courtney Lee on him had just a tad to do with it.

Joe has played four preseason games so far.

In two games against Philly he shot 13-24 (54%) from the field, 5-11 from three (45%) and averaged 18.3 Pts per 36 min.

In two games against Boston and Washington he has shot 10-27 (37%) from the field, 4-11 (36%) from three and averaged 12.5 Pts per 36 minutes.

To say he's played well in other games is not accurate.  He's played four games - he's played well in two of them and poorly in two of them. If anything the bad games are more telling becuase they were against two different teams, while his two good games were both against the same team (meaning it could have just been a favourable matchup).

To make matters worse one of his bad games came against Washington - hardly a top tier defensive team, and they did not have Courtney Lee on their team defending him.

Josh was just as terrible in last years playoffs, where his scoring (15.3 PP36), rebounding (3.1 RP48), passing (3.1 AP36), turnovers (2.4 TP36), FG shooting (37%) and 3PT Shooting (25%) were all worse than his regular season averages.

To be honest, I just don't think he's as good as his reputation suggest.  As I said in my previous post I still give Lee a lot of credit for his defense so far (it has been very nice), I just don't think it's the sole reason for Johnson's bad night.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Don't understand all the posts insinuating that Johnson's performance against Lee was due to Johnson's diminishing play, when he's actually be having a very good preseason, shooting at a high percentage and scoring well.

That game against the Celtics was by far his worst showing so far in the preseason, all of his other ones have been quite good.

So, I'm going to err on the side of Boston's defense, and Courtney Lee on him had just a tad to do with it.

Joe has played four preseason games so far.

In two games against Philly he shot 13-24 (54%) from the field, 5-11 from three (45%) and averaged 18.3 Pts per 36 min.

In two games against Boston and Washington he has shot 10-27 (37%) from the field, 4-11 (36%) from three and averaged 12.5 Pts per 36 minutes.

To say he's played well in other games is not accurate.  He's played four games - he's played well in two of them and poorly in two of them. If anything the bad games are more telling becuase they were against two different teams, while his two good games were both against the same team (meaning it could have just been a favourable matchup).

To make matters worse one of his bad games came against Washington - hardly a top tier defensive team, and they did not have Courtney Lee on their team defending him.

Josh was just as terrible in last years playoffs, where his scoring (15.3 PP36), rebounding (3.1 RP48), passing (3.1 AP36), turnovers (2.4 TP36), FG shooting (37%) and 3PT Shooting (25%) were all worse than his regular season averages.

To be honest, I just don't think he's as good as his reputation suggest.  As I said in my previous post I still give Lee a lot of credit for his defense so far (it has been very nice), I just don't think it's the sole reason for Johnson's bad night.

Wow, how do you spin it so well!?

He's played well in 3 of them. The poor one was against the Celtics. But, "well" is a bit of stretch, but definitely not poor. He's been shooting the ball overall well.

I don't know how you can call a 6 of 13 shooting night a poor game by Johnson against Washington. That's 14 points, with 5 assists, 1 block and just 1 TO in his 2nd game with the Nets. Just wow on how you came to the conclusion that this was a poor game for him.

That's 46% shooting in one game. That's not poor. Your numbers were highly skewed by a 4 for 14 shooting night in Boston. It doesn't compare.

[Greenbean]

It appears that father time is the best "Joe Johnson stopper" out there

Yeah, there arent many in the league that cant stop Joe Johnson at this point. I think he is extremely overrated amognst the league.

I think Johnson has been pretty consistent.

I mean I dont like his game really at all but I dont see a decline. He has never relied on athletic ability and he is only 31.

He still scores well in isolation, passes fairly well, and is a mediocre defender.

He just doesnt have a very exciting game.

[crimson_stallion]

@ BudweiserCeltic

I just think it's a pretty mediocre performance considering the context, which is:

1. He's An All-Star
2. He's a career 18 PPG scorer
3. He's now playing off one of the best PG's in the league
4. He played 38 minutes
5. It was against weak pre-season defense
6. It was against a team that doesn't play much D as is

So far in preseason play Joe Johnson has averaged:
15.2 Pts (45% FG, 41% 3PT), 2.5 Reb, 3.3 Ass per 36 min

Pierce has averaged:
25.0 Pts (52% FG, 58% 3PT), 6.7 Reb, 2.0 Ass per 36 min

Pierce is clearly dominating the weak pre-season lineups/defense and Johnson should be doing the same (espcially playing with a playmaker like Deron Williams) but he just hasn't.  His production has if anything been worse than his regular season prodcution.

At least that's how I look at it, but each to their own!

[BudweiserCeltic]

I just don't think it's a great performance considering the context, which is:

1. He's An All-Star
2. He's a career 18 PPG scorer
3. He's now playing off one of the best PG's in the league
4. He played 38 minutes
5. It was against weak pre-season defense
6. It was against a team that doesn't play much D as is

So far in preseason play Joe Johnson has averaged:
15.2 Pts (45% FG, 41% 3PT), 2.5 Reb, 3.3 Ass per 36 min

Pierce has averaged:
25.0 Pts (52% FG, 58% 3PT), 6.7 Reb, 2.0 Ass per 36 min

Pierce is clearly dominating the weak pre-season lineups/defense and Johnson should be doing the same (espcially playing with a playmaker like Deron Williams) but he just hasn't.  His production has if anything been worse than his regular season prodcution.

At least that's how I look at it, but each to their own!

The only reason Joe Johnson is currently averaging 45% for the preseason (I'm trusting your math) is because it was skewed by the Celtics game severely.

And that's my point. The Celtics game stands from the pack in comparison to the rest of the games. So that Johnson struggled this amount with us, while having good shooting nights against the rest of the competition, I have to say that the Celtics defense and Courtney Lee had something to do with that.

While your 6 points above are valid, it's also valid to point out that the Washington team was his 2nd game with a new team which has brought a lot of new guys itself. So there's that context too.

Also in context, of the 13 field goal attempts he was only 2 for 6 from 3pt.

That means that in other areas of the game, he was 4 for 7. I think that puts some good perspective on how he was a tough player to guard.

[crimson_stallion]

Fair enough, Joe Johnson is playing for a new team and needs to learn the offense. 

Lets use a fair comparison then - Per 36 Minutes numbers for four guys who did not play for the Celtics last season:

Jason Terry
16.7 Pts (51% FG, 69% 3PT), 4.1 Ass, 3.0 Reb, 1.6 Stl,  1.0 TO

Courtney Lee
14.4 pts (51% FG, 24% 3PT), 2.2 Ass, 3.5 Reb, 2.4 Stl, 1.4 TO 

Jared Sullinger
15.1 Pts (56% FG, 33% 3PT), 1.0 Ass, 9.9 Reb, 0.4 Stl 1.4 TO

Jeff Green
17.8 Pts (49% FG, 44% 3PT), 1.3 Ass, 5.2 Reb, 0.4 Stl, 1.6 TO

Compared to our subject:

Joe Johnson
15.2 Pts (45% FG, 41% 3PT), 3.2 Ass, 2.4 Reb, 1.6 Stl, 1.9 TO

Surely you can see where I'm coming from. 

Joe Johnson is supposed to be an All-Star and the second best player on that team, and we have four bench players who are arguably outplaying him so far in the preseason - three of those guys (Lee, Terry, Sullinger) have never worn a Celtics jersey, and the fourth one (Green) just came back after heart surgery and not playing for an entire year.

Of course comparing him to our starers doesn't make it any better:

Brandon Bass
13.7 Pts (66% FG), 7.4 Reb, 2.1 Ass, 0.3 Stl, 0.3 Blk, 0.8 TO

Paul Pierce
25.1 Pts (52% FG, 58% 3PT), 6.7 Reb, 2.1 Ass, 0.5 Stl, 3.4 TO

Kevin Garnett
14.4 Pts (59% FG), 9.0 Reb, 3.2 Ass, 2.3 Stl, 2.3 Blk, 4.0 TO

Rajon Rondo
13.1 Pts (42% FG, 40% 3PT), 9.8 Ass, 5.3 Reb, 1.4 Stl, 5.3 TO

Basically we have 8 guys on our roster who are performing as well as (or better than) Joe Johnson - a guy who is supposed to be an All-Star and the #2 option in Brooklyn.

The fact that Jason Terry is coming in off the bench and outperforming Joe Johnson in every statistical category on a per minute basis (including rebounding,  for a 6'2" combo guard) is a worry.

Even Courtney Lee (who is considered by most to be a borderline starter) has put up numbers at on par with Johnson, while playing far superior defense.

Also when Joe Johnson (one of the biggest SG's in the league) is getting out rebounded by three modestly sized guards (Terry, Lee, Rondo) that's a little...embarassing.

If he's just the type of veteran guys who falls asleep during preseason games and then comes alive when it counts, then I'd understand completely...but his performance in the playoffs last season was even more woeful. 

All of this leads me to the conclusion that Joe Johnson is a 'solid' starter at best.  Certainly not an All Star.

In fact that's what I've always thought of him...a nice player, but terribly overrated.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Fair enough, Joe Johnson is playing for a new team and needs to learn the offense. 

Lets use a fair comparison then - Per 36 Minutes numbers for four guys who did not play for the Celtics last season:

Jason Terry
16.7 Pts (51% FG, 69% 3PT), 4.1 Ass, 3.0 Reb, 1.6 Stl,  1.0 TO

Courtney Lee
14.4 pts (51% FG, 24% 3PT), 2.2 Ass, 3.5 Reb, 2.4 Stl, 1.4 TO 

Jared Sullinger
15.1 Pts (56% FG, 33% 3PT), 1.0 Ass, 9.9 Reb, 0.4 Stl 1.4 TO

Jeff Green
17.8 Pts (49% FG, 44% 3PT), 1.3 Ass, 5.2 Reb, 0.4 Stl, 1.6 TO

Compared to our subject:

Joe Johnson
15.2 Pts (45% FG, 41% 3PT), 3.2 Ass, 2.4 Reb, 1.6 Stl, 1.9 TO

Surely you can see where I'm coming from. 

Joe Johnson is supposed to be an All-Star and the second best player on that team, and we have four bench players who are arguably outplaying him so far in the preseason - three of those guys (Lee, Terry, Sullinger) have never worn a Celtics jersey, and the fourth one (Green) just came back after heart surgery and not playing for an entire year.

Of course comparing him to our starers doesn't make it any better:

Brandon Bass
13.7 Pts (66% FG), 7.4 Reb, 2.1 Ass, 0.3 Stl, 0.3 Blk, 0.8 TO

Paul Pierce
25.1 Pts (52% FG, 58% 3PT), 6.7 Reb, 2.1 Ass, 0.5 Stl, 3.4 TO

Kevin Garnett
14.4 Pts (59% FG), 9.0 Reb, 3.2 Ass, 2.3 Stl, 2.3 Blk, 4.0 TO

Rajon Rondo
13.1 Pts (42% FG, 40% 3PT), 9.8 Ass, 5.3 Reb, 1.4 Stl, 5.3 TO

Basically we have 8 guys on our roster who are performing as well as (or better than) Joe Johnson, who is supposed to be an All-Star and the #2 option in Brooklyn.

The fact that Jason Terry is coming in off the bench and outperforming Joe Johnson in every statistical category on a per minute basis (including rebounding,  for a 6'2" combo guard) would lead me to the conclusion that Joe Johnson is a quality starter, but certainly not an All Star.

In fact that's what I've always thought of him...a nice player, but terribly overrated.

All that is meaningless to me. What I care about is 3 good games vs. 1 poor game, and that 1 poor game highly skewing the percentages to fit your narrative.

Remove the outlier, which at this point in time it's what the Celtics is, which played the Nets on a defensive level of a #1 defensive team type of defense, and you have Johnson shooting at 51% from the field. A 51% player so far during the preseason that was held to 29% by the Celtics. So tell me, what does the data tell you? So far all it's telling me is that Johnson for whatever reason had vastly more trouble with the Celtics than any other team so far. I don't think calling it on Johnson's diminishing talent is wise with the data we have in hand when considering his performances against other teams.

Are you going to tell me, that a poor game is more representative than 3 games in which he had a good shooting night, when the very reason we're discussing this in the first place is because we are aware of how good the Celtics' defense was that particular day?

We have a small sample size, and that's why the percentages become volatile. We all know that during the course of the season everyone's numbers will come back to the norm, but as it stands, it's a bit disingenuous to portray Johnson as a poor offensive player when considering his history, and more importantly what he's shown so far this year.

I think credit belong to the Celtics pressure we put that particular day, where we held the whole Nets team to 37% shooting.

[crimson_stallion]

What I'm saying is that Joe Johnson just isn't THAT dominant offensively.  He's good, but he's not elite.  Johnson shot 37% against us in the playoffs last season when he primarilly being defended by Ray Allen (with bone spurs) and Paul Pierce (with a bad MCL).

Allen and Pierce also defended Wade and Lebron in the Miami series, and those guys shot 46% and 50% from the field respectively.

Boston's defense was very good against Brooklyn the other night, but when it comes to this matchup I think it was partly Lee's solid defense, and partly Joe Johnson struggling.

Also the averages represent pretty well.  Even if you take the Boston game out of the equation, Joe's numbers are still not that spectacular by preseason standards:

15.0 Pts (51% FG, 41% 3PT), 1.8 Reb, 3.6 Ass, 1.7 Stl, 2.0 TO

As opposed to the following if you DO include that game:

15.2 Pts (45% FG, 41% 3PT), 3.2 Ass, 2.4 Reb, 1.6 Stl, 1.9 TO

Include the Boston game or not, we still have 8 guys on our roster who have produced on par with JJ so far in the preseason.  I'm not buying the idea that Lee did something extra special against JJ that other guys haven't done.  I think he played good defense against JJ, but not the type of intense, suffocating D that we see from Bradley.

I think Lee did a solid job on Joe, but I think he also got some decent looks that he just didn't hit.

I still like the D I've seen from Lee though the last 3-4 games.  He's done a nice job and will fit in great on this team