Author Topic: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit  (Read 7925 times)

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Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« on: October 10, 2012, 02:41:14 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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Hello!

Not sure if this had already been posted, but I just stumbled across this article on NBA.com

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2012/10/08/sullinger-could-be-key-for-celtics/

The title of the article is about J-Sul, but the part that caught my eye was this:

Quote
Over the last couple of years, the Celtics’ starting lineup has been just fine. In fact, the lineup that Doc Rivers employed at the end of last season — Rajon Rondo, Avery Bradley, Paul Pierce, Brandon Bass and Kevin Garnett — outscored its opponents by an amazing 21.1 points per 100 possessions in 342 minutes (including postseason).  That was easily the best mark of any lineup that played at least 200 minutes together

I already knew that our starting 5 (with Bradley in place of Allen) was one of the elite lineups in the league, but the stats above suggest we had the best starting lineup in the league...by far. 

I always felt our biggest problem was what happens when our starters sit, and our bench comes out.  Our second unit always seemed to play defense well enough, but getting points from our reserves was like trying to get water from a stone.
 
This is further confirmed by the following quote from the article:

Quote
But the Celtics struggled whenever Garnett rested. In the regular season, Boston was outscored by 2.6 points per 100 possessions when KG was on the bench, and in the playoffs that number rose to an amazing 27.6 points per 100 possessions. Overall, the Celtics actually fell off more offensively than defensively in Garnett’s absence.

Previously if we could get 15 points from our bench we were very difficult to beat.  Now when our guys sit we have these guys coming off the bench:

* Jason Terry - Scorer, leader, playmaker, career 15 ppg scorer
* Courtney Lee - Very good shooter, skilled slasher, solid defender, career 10 ppg scorer
* Jeff Green - Can score from anywhere, versatile defender, playmaker, career 15 ppg scorer
* Jared Sullinger - Good low post scorer, exceptional offensive rebounder
* Darko Milicic - Good defensive rebounder, good shotblocker, intimidator

Lets assume our bench has a mediocre game:
* Terry scores 6
* Lee scores 6
* Green scores 6
* Sullinger scores 6
* Milicic doesn't score

That's 25 points from our bench in what is pretty much the worse case scenario.  If our bench scored 25 in ANY game last year (while we had Rondo/Bradley/Pierce/Bass/KG starting) we probably won that game.

Let's say our bench has a good game:
* Terry scores 15
* Green scores 15
* Lee scores 10
* Sully scores 10
* Milicic does not score at all

That's 50 points from our bench, and it's entirely possible that they will have nights like that.

This excites me because we now have something we have we have never had before - the ability to apply 48 minutes of constant pressure on our opponents every single night. 


Our starters will throw the first punch, but once those guys sit down our opponents will have to witstand an offensive onslaught from our second unit.  No team in the league will ever be able to afford to take quarters off against us becuase we will be one of the few teams in the league who can dominate a game for 48 minutes without worrying about our starters being overplayed and worn out.

This is why I love our team right now, and it's why I consider us right up there with Miami for the "best team in the East" label right now.

That is all :)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 03:16:30 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 03:53:40 AM »

Offline Smutzy#9

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I too consider our team the deepest in the league this year or at least top 3 in that category but all of them scoring 10 a night cant really see. Im assuming we are gonna get something like

Terry 12-15 a night
Green 8-12 (to begin with! mmore than capable of goin 14+ a night)
Lee 8-12
Sully 8-10
Darko/Wilcox 2-6 anywhere from there.

And totally agree with you about us scoring 25 bench points last year, would of been a stretch for that to happen.

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 05:37:07 AM »

Offline j804

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I agree completely, also the best thing about having a solid bench is it means our starters will play less and should be more fresh down the stretch. We always run out of gas by the second round/ECF it's a good chance that's not happening this year. ;D
"7ft PG. Rondo leaves and GUESS WHAT? We got a BIGGER point guard!"-Tommy on Olynyk


Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2012, 07:42:40 AM »

Offline mctyson

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It sucks that our best lineup was not available for the series against the Heat last year.  Yet still, we went to 7 games, and had a 3-2 lead with a closeout home game.

Miami knows how close they were to losing against us.  I think that is why Riley went so hard after Ray Allen in the offseason - he felt Ray would improve Miami and decimate Boston.

I have news for Ri Ri:  JET LEE

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2012, 08:05:59 AM »

Offline nostar

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As the rosters shape up I'm seeing the only teams as deep as us being the Clippers and the Nets.

Also I'm 50/50 as to whether I'd trade our current depth for a borderline all-star. A couple of guys I'd make a play for would be Paul Millsap and David West. Those guys both have low post scoring and can play 35 a night, 40 in the post season. I imagine we could get West cheaper but he wouldn't fit into our budget unless we moved someone else.


Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2012, 09:35:00 AM »

Offline arambone

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Bradley is a borderline all star. So is Green. Sullinger is a future borderline All Star.

Melo could be a future borderline all star.

Please keep our borderline all stars, future borderline all stars, and potential borderline all stars out of trade scenarios for highly paid borderline all stars.

Rebuilding a championship team on the fly is extremely difficult. Danny is actually doing it, and the celtics dont carry a single bad contract.

Just because lebron and wade played 40+ minutes every game in the playoffs, doesnt mean they were playing at peak performance the whole time. A better bench like what we got now would have done some real damage on those overextended guys. Not to mention its nice still being a championship team if any single player goes down.

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2012, 12:18:22 PM »

Offline tonyto3690

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Bradley is a borderline all star. So is Green. Sullinger is a future borderline All Star.

Melo could be a future borderline all star.

Please keep our borderline all stars, future borderline all stars, and potential borderline all stars out of trade scenarios for highly paid borderline all stars.

Rebuilding a championship team on the fly is extremely difficult. Danny is actually doing it, and the celtics dont carry a single bad contract.

Just because lebron and wade played 40+ minutes every game in the playoffs, doesnt mean they were playing at peak performance the whole time. A better bench like what we got now would have done some real damage on those overextended guys. Not to mention its nice still being a championship team if any single player goes down.

Bradley is an all star calibre player
Green is capable but at this point is definitely not anywhere near that category.
Sullinger hasn't played a single game and could average 2 pts 3 reb for his career for all we know.
Melo looks to be at very best a good role player or mediocre starter.

You drastically overrating our players.  This game is about star power and Bradley is the only one remotely close and he is not a star.  If you get a chance to grab a real star at the cost of a few role players, you do it without hestitation.

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2012, 01:11:06 PM »

Offline MJohnnyboy

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As the rosters shape up I'm seeing the only teams as deep as us being the Clippers and the Nets.

Also I'm 50/50 as to whether I'd trade our current depth for a borderline all-star. A couple of guys I'd make a play for would be Paul Millsap and David West. Those guys both have low post scoring and can play 35 a night, 40 in the post season. I imagine we could get West cheaper but he wouldn't fit into our budget unless we moved someone else.

How bout the Spurs?

More importantly, why would we want West after what he did to us?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 03:19:52 PM by MJohnnyboy »

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »

Offline manl_lui

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with our depth this year, I don't want to see any major trades either. What I want to see is blood during the playoffs with the Heat. With our depth at the center and power forward position I want them to foul Lebron and Wade hard whenever they drive to the basket

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2012, 02:01:57 PM »

Offline TBreezy

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Without doing a statistical study, and thus not knowing the numbers, we can at least agree to some general principles (at elast wihtout significant changes to the offense DOc runs).

  • Teams score on average XXX points per game
  • There is a variance between an individual teams average and the average of what all team average

these are the concepts of mean and sigma.  we also know that the PPG is a function of (Time, Talent), where talent could be a function of (shooting, rebounding, offensive accumen).  Shooting itself (per player) can be quantified by an average shooting percentage, with a standard deviation upon that.  But the impact of upgrading an individual player is the difference in shooting percentage, given a fixed number of shots (substituting a player hsouldn't result in more shots) resulting in an absolute change in scoring.  Terry may shoot better than dooling by 10% - but only 2.6 points per 10 shots. 

I would almost say that shots are going to remain relatively fixed.  So new players are going to assume the shots of departed players, PLUS any shots they wrestle   away from returning players.  Even if we increase our O Rebounding percentage to the league average - it is only likley to result in 2-3 extra shots per game.  There is no way we can pencil in 10 guys as 10-15ppg scoreres - it's just not going to work (team would average ~130 ppg). 

Thats not to say having depth isnt an asset.  I see the benefits of
  • Keeping the starters fresh
  • Havgin fresh starters means they will more efficent down the stretch (perhaps extra points gained)
  • Be able to survive foul problems without significant drop offs
  • Not having to rely on individual contributors as much

Depth is good, but we cannot look back and add up all the average PPG for each one of these guys, over their careers, and figure they will provide that or a function of that for the C's.  Its likley the best thing to consdier (from a points perspective) is that the most portable statistic is the shooting percentage (rims are the same everywhere).






Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2012, 02:35:28 PM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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Bradley is a borderline all star. So is Green. Sullinger is a future borderline All Star.

Melo could be a future borderline all star.

Why are you so down on Kris Joseph??

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2012, 02:55:25 PM »

Offline TBreezy

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Bradley is a borderline all star. So is Green. Sullinger is a future borderline All Star.

Melo could be a future borderline all star.

Why are you so down on Kris Joseph??

This is super funny

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2012, 12:48:02 AM »

Offline crimson_stallion

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There is no way we can pencil in 10 guys as 10-15ppg scoreres - it's just not going to work (team would average ~130 ppg).

I never said that we would have 5 guys on our bench giving us 10-15 PPG. All I said is that everyone from 1-4 on our bench is capable of scoring 10-15 points (assuming they get the minutes and have a good shooting night). 

There are probably going to be nights (like after back to backs, etc) where our bench guys are going to be asked to play a bigger role so our starters can rest.  On those nights I think very possible that Terry and Green can give us 12-15 apiece in around 30 minutes, with Lee and Sully giving us 8-12 in >20 mins. On a night like that we're looking at 40 - 55 points from our bench, and there aren't a lot of teams in the league who can genuinely say their bench is capable of that.

Take a look at our team last season.  The only guy off our bench who was genuinely capable of double figure scoring was Pietrus, and he was streaky as hell.  Other than that we had Dooling, Marquis, Wilcox and Stiemsma and neither of those guys could be expected to score in double figures scorer even if they did play 25+ minutes.

I predict that the scoring / minutes from our starting lineup this season will be something like this:

Garnett - 14 PPG @ 28 min
Bass - 11 PPG @ 28 min
Pierce - 16 PPG @ 28 min
Bradley - 10 PPG @ 25 min
Rondo - 15 PPG @ 35 min

This is obviously assuming that Bradley and Bass are starting once Bradley returns.  I don't think a single guy on this team bar Rondo is going to average over 30 minutes this season because we just have too much depth, and if starters play more than that our key bench guys don't get the playin time they deserve.

I think KG and Pierce are going to play at the same level they did in the second half of last season, but their scoring output will drop slightly due to drop in minutes.  I also think their efficiency will increase becuase they are going to be coming into the season off a full training camp - they should be better conditioned than last year AND less tired due to reduced minutes.

I think Rondo will play similar minutes (maybe a minute less) per night simply becuase he's so important to our offense, but I have a feeling his scoring is going to jump up by 2-3 PPG based on his improved shooting touch in the playoffs last year and in the preseason so far.  If he simply increased his FT% up to 70% then he'll probably get another 2 PPG from that alone.  I also see Rondo's offensive efficiency increasing with his gradually improving shooting and expect he will be right back up around his career 48% mark from the field.

If Rondo can put up 15 PPG (while shooting 48% / 32% / 70%) along with 5 RPG, 11 APG and 2 SPG I think he will be top 5 in MVP voting without a doubt.

I think Bass and Bradley (if they start) are not going to play more than about 25 - 28 minutes a night, and will probably both be borderline double figure scorers at 9 - 11 PPG.

That's the starters, now moving to the bench:

Terry - 11 PPG @ 22 mins
Lee -  6 PPG @ 14 mins
Green - 12 PPG @ 25 mins
Sullinger - 6 PPG @ 15 mins
Milicic - 4 PPG @ 20 mins

I think we have two guys on our bench (Terry and Green) who are going to be consistent double figure scorers. I think those two guys will each give us between between 8 - 16 points off the bench every night (depending on minutes, matchups, whether they are hot, etc).  This is definately not unrealistic target because we got exactly that from Jeff Green (10 PPG) and Big Baby (12 PPG) in 10-11 season.

Lee hasn't ever really scored more than about 10 points per 30 minutes, so 6-7 points in 14 minutes seems about right.  One spot-up three, one layup, one made free throw and that's 6 points right there.

Sullinger I think will get most of the backup minutes behind Bass, and I think he will score at a relatively similar rate to what he has in preseason (give or take).  That suggests about 6 points in 15 minutes which sounds about right to me.  It pretty much equates to one inside shot off an assist, one putback off an offensive rebound and two made free throws.

Milicic is unlikely be much of a scorer for us from what I've seen, and he won't be expected to score.  He might get anywhere from 2 - 5 points a night just from garbage points and the occasional free throws.  I don't expect him to be a significant part of the offense and think he'll be out there more for defense and rebounding than anything.

I think Wilcox' minutes (if he gets many) will be split with Milicic at the center spot depending on whether we want to go big or athletic. 

I think the above numbers look pretty realistic, and if you add them all up you get 39 PPG from out bench.  That would be:

1. About 3x what we got from our bench last year
2. The most we've probably every had in the big 3 era
3. One of the highest outputs of any team in the NBA

If all of this comes true then this team will average 100+ PPG and should once again have the offensive firepower to match our dominant defence. 

If we can rank top 10 in offense while remaining a top 3 defensive team, we will be VERY hard to beat...and I think that's realistically possible given the talent we have.

This excites me :)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:50:34 AM by crimson_stallion »

Re: Quality of our starting 5 and impact of our second unit
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 03:47:38 PM »

Offline billysan

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Regardless of all the speculation on who will score what, we have 4 guys that are capable on any given night IMHO of scoring 20 points. Not that they will every night, but that they are capable and will step up on occasion.

This is what we were sorely lacking last year, someone coming off the bench who was capable of having that 20 point scoring explosion on any given night against any team. The other plus is that we have a supporting cast that can step in with the starters and still be productive at a high level. No drop off from our second unit, even with Darko (rebounding) from what I am seeing.
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