The Horror!! SEA/GBP - NFL Officiating

[kozlodoev]

Man, their stupidity was being mocked last night at Monday Night Raw, gold.

Sorry if I can't be impressed by a bunch of meatheads mocking someone.

[angryguy77]

The referee blunders continues.

What a shame NFL, not wanting to pay their refs and resorting to this absurd officiating. Man, their stupidity was being mocked last night at Monday Night Raw, gold.

The league is right to want to have the ability to have a reserve bench of refs. I think we all would have a collective heart attack if Stern said he was going to keep refs on call to replace the ones that suck. This would be better for the league in the long run. If we have to endure a season of terrible calls, I can live with it if it means the game will benefit.

I hope the league stand firm on that. The refs want protection that most other working people don't get. If they do a terrible job, the league should be able to replace them like any other business.

[fairweatherfan]

See my edit - the rules on catching use a slightly different term (presumably just to make things more confusing), but they appear to me to identify gaining control as the first phase of a catch, and maintaining it as the second. 

Jennings gained control in the air, then Tate, and both maintained it to the ground.  But the letter of the rule seems to say the man who gained control first wins.

But what if Jennings came down out of bounds.  You can't separate control from possession, that is why both feet must come down.  When that happened here the offensive player was first down and still had control of the ball, which he had from the beginning.  Jennings may have had a firmer grip initially, but Tate was always in contact of the ball and his grip never left it, and he was the first one with both feet down. Thus it was in fact a simultaneous catch.

If Jennings came down out of bounds, it's covered by the "both players retain it" part of the simultaneous catch rule.

Both the simultaneous catch and standard catch rules appear to clearly separate gaining control and completing the catch.  Gaining control is the first stage of completing the catch, but if both players complete the catch, the first guy who got to that first stage wins.  Again, just my interpretation but the phrasing appears clear.

Think about it this way - if you jump up and catch the ball, but get your legs knocked into the air on your way down, and I run up and put my hands on the ball before your back hits the turf, that's still your catch, not mine.   

[BballTim]

I originally thought it was a Green Bay interception all the way, but after further review, the Seattle Seahawk Receiver had two hands on the ball and both feet on the ground IN THE END Zone before the Green Bay Packer DB's feet touched.

It's a Seahawks TD and win. Case closed.

Control of the ball is not the same as possession of the ball.

A catch is not the same when the catch involves "out of bounds" or the "end zone" or just the "regular field of play".

In this circumstance, it was an "endzone" catch. No out of bounds at play here folks. There is no need for "completing the process of the catch"....none here folks.

The Seahawks receiver had 2 hands on the ball and 2 feet down in the endzone. The football broke the plane of the endzone and two feet were established in bounds.

Touchdown.

  The DB had both hands on the ball. The receiver had 1 hand on the ball and 1 hand on the db's arm and later moved his second hand onto the ball. I don't think that really counts as simultaneous control of the ball.

[kozlodoev]

  The DB had both hands on the ball. The receiver had 1 hand on the ball and 1 hand on the db's arm and later moved his second hand onto the ball. I don't think that really counts as simultaneous control of the ball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is having two hands on the ball a necessary condition to establish control? I've seen a fair number of one handed grabs that were rulled a catch.

[Chris]

  The DB had both hands on the ball. The receiver had 1 hand on the ball and 1 hand on the db's arm and later moved his second hand onto the ball. I don't think that really counts as simultaneous control of the ball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is having two hands on the ball a necessary condition to establish control? I've seen a fair number of one handed grabs that were rulled a catch.

You are correct.  And I think the problem is that everyone is focussing on who has greater control, when that is irrelevant.  The only question is whether Tate has control, and I think there is a strong argument he does, by maintaining his left hand on the ball (at least as far as can be seen on the video).

[Roy H.]

  The DB had both hands on the ball. The receiver had 1 hand on the ball and 1 hand on the db's arm and later moved his second hand onto the ball. I don't think that really counts as simultaneous control of the ball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is having two hands on the ball a necessary condition to establish control? I've seen a fair number of one handed grabs that were rulled a catch.

You are correct.  And I think the problem is that everyone is focussing on who has greater control, when that is irrelevant.  The only question is whether Tate has control, and I think there is a strong argument he does, by maintaining his left hand on the ball (at least as far as can be seen on the video).

Even if Tate has control, doesn't it matter if Jennings has control *first*?  If Tate has control first, and never loses that control, than I'm not sure that it counts as simultaneous possession.

[Moranis]

  The DB had both hands on the ball. The receiver had 1 hand on the ball and 1 hand on the db's arm and later moved his second hand onto the ball. I don't think that really counts as simultaneous control of the ball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is having two hands on the ball a necessary condition to establish control? I've seen a fair number of one handed grabs that were rulled a catch.

You are correct.  And I think the problem is that everyone is focussing on who has greater control, when that is irrelevant.  The only question is whether Tate has control, and I think there is a strong argument he does, by maintaining his left hand on the ball (at least as far as can be seen on the video).

Even if Tate has control, doesn't it matter if Jennings has control *first*?  If Tate has control first, and never loses that control, than I'm not sure that it counts as simultaneous possession.

But Jennings didn't have control first.  They both had their hands up in that mess and both had their hands on the ball at essentially the same time.  Sure Jennings had 2 vs. Tate's 1, but they both were in control.

[Moranis]

See my edit - the rules on catching use a slightly different term (presumably just to make things more confusing), but they appear to me to identify gaining control as the first phase of a catch, and maintaining it as the second. 

Jennings gained control in the air, then Tate, and both maintained it to the ground.  But the letter of the rule seems to say the man who gained control first wins.

But what if Jennings came down out of bounds.  You can't separate control from possession, that is why both feet must come down.  When that happened here the offensive player was first down and still had control of the ball, which he had from the beginning.  Jennings may have had a firmer grip initially, but Tate was always in contact of the ball and his grip never left it, and he was the first one with both feet down. Thus it was in fact a simultaneous catch.

If Jennings came down out of bounds, it's covered by the "both players retain it" part of the simultaneous catch rule.

Both the simultaneous catch and standard catch rules appear to clearly separate gaining control and completing the catch.  Gaining control is the first stage of completing the catch, but if both players complete the catch, the first guy who got to that first stage wins.  Again, just my interpretation but the phrasing appears clear.

Think about it this way - if you jump up and catch the ball, but get your legs knocked into the air on your way down, and I run up and put my hands on the ball before your back hits the turf, that's still your catch, not mine.

But that didn't happen here.  Tate was in constant contact with the ball and in control of it the entire time Jennings was.  You can argue all you want about whether Jennings had greater control, but that is not a requirement, only that both simultaneous control the ball, which is what happened here.

[fairweatherfan]

See my edit - the rules on catching use a slightly different term (presumably just to make things more confusing), but they appear to me to identify gaining control as the first phase of a catch, and maintaining it as the second. 

Jennings gained control in the air, then Tate, and both maintained it to the ground.  But the letter of the rule seems to say the man who gained control first wins.

But what if Jennings came down out of bounds.  You can't separate control from possession, that is why both feet must come down.  When that happened here the offensive player was first down and still had control of the ball, which he had from the beginning.  Jennings may have had a firmer grip initially, but Tate was always in contact of the ball and his grip never left it, and he was the first one with both feet down. Thus it was in fact a simultaneous catch.

If Jennings came down out of bounds, it's covered by the "both players retain it" part of the simultaneous catch rule.

Both the simultaneous catch and standard catch rules appear to clearly separate gaining control and completing the catch.  Gaining control is the first stage of completing the catch, but if both players complete the catch, the first guy who got to that first stage wins.  Again, just my interpretation but the phrasing appears clear.

Think about it this way - if you jump up and catch the ball, but get your legs knocked into the air on your way down, and I run up and put my hands on the ball before your back hits the turf, that's still your catch, not mine.

But that didn't happen here.  Tate was in constant contact with the ball and in control of it the entire time Jennings was.  You can argue all you want about whether Jennings had greater control, but that is not a requirement, only that both simultaneous control the ball, which is what happened here.

That hypothetical didn't happen here; I was just referring to you saying your feet had to land to have control.  I don't think they do, that's why I gave a hypothetical where my feet are down first but it's clearly your catch. 

I haven't argued at all about who had greater control, just who had control first.  In the replay I see Jennings catching it first, with Tate's fingertips on the ball.  I don't see those fingertips as controlling the ball, but that is a gray area.  As they go down Tate adjusts and gets a better grip, but the first guy to control it seems to be Jennings. 

If you see them both getting the ball at the same instant I can respect that; it's a close play either way.  But based on the wording of the rule, how and when they landed (if they're both inbounds and both have the ball) doesn't matter.

[Rondo2287]

“Before we get into that, some stuff just needs to be said,” Rodgers said. “First of all, I’ve got to do something that the NFL is not going to do, and I have to apologize to the fans. Our sport is generated, a multi-billion dollar machine, by people who pay good money to come watch us play. And the product on the field is not being complemented by an appropriate set of officials. The games are getting out of control. Like I said in the first week, I’m OK with replacement refs as long as they don’t have a direct impact on the game. Obviously last night there was a direct impact on the game on multiple plays. But my thing is I just feel bad for the fans. They pay good money to watch this. The game is being tarnished by an NFL that obviously cares more about saving some money than having the integrity of the game diminished.”

 - Aaron Rodgers

Pretty serious stuff from the reigning mvp

[angryguy77]

“Before we get into that, some stuff just needs to be said,” Rodgers said. “First of all, I’ve got to do something that the NFL is not going to do, and I have to apologize to the fans. Our sport is generated, a multi-billion dollar machine, by people who pay good money to come watch us play. And the product on the field is not being complemented by an appropriate set of officials. The games are getting out of control. Like I said in the first week, I’m OK with replacement refs as long as they don’t have a direct impact on the game. Obviously last night there was a direct impact on the game on multiple plays. But my thing is I just feel bad for the fans. They pay good money to watch this. The game is being tarnished by an NFL that obviously cares more about saving some money than having the integrity of the game diminished.”

 - Aaron Rodgers

Pretty serious stuff from the reigning mvp

Well the MVP should look at everything that being negotiated. It's not all the money.

I'm wondering how much of an impact he thinks the refs had on their one and only td drive.

[indeedproceed]

“Before we get into that, some stuff just needs to be said,” Rodgers said. “First of all, I’ve got to do something that the NFL is not going to do, and I have to apologize to the fans. Our sport is generated, a multi-billion dollar machine, by people who pay good money to come watch us play. And the product on the field is not being complemented by an appropriate set of officials. The games are getting out of control. Like I said in the first week, I’m OK with replacement refs as long as they don’t have a direct impact on the game. Obviously last night there was a direct impact on the game on multiple plays. But my thing is I just feel bad for the fans. They pay good money to watch this. The game is being tarnished by an NFL that obviously cares more about saving some money than having the integrity of the game diminished.”

 - Aaron Rodgers

Pretty serious stuff from the reigning mvp

GREEN BAY, WI- It has been unverified the extent of Packers' quarterback Aaron Rodger's injuries, but it is estimated that the recovery time for removing Roger Goodell's size 12-wide premium italian leather loafers from 'knee-deep' in Aaron Rodger's rectum is 1-3 months.

[mmmmm]

Another view. This is a simultaneous catch imo.

BSPN and the like are once again not doing their homework.

No it is not.  The ball is against he defenders chest.  The receiver has his hand across the defenders arm.


He did a good job of catching the WR though.


And when on the ground as they roll, you can see the defenders body go between the WR and the ball.  So even if the WR had both hands on he ball, he has no control over it while the defender has it, but touches the defender down.

Except its not against his chest - its against Tate's hands/arm, which are between the ball and Jenning's chest.

In fact, by the time they reach the ground, Tate clearly has _both_ hands around the ball, and between it and Jennings.

Look at it from the beginning of the gif you posted.  The ball does touch Jennings right hand first, but that is literally microseconds before it also touches Tate's left hand.  Jenning's initial 'control' on the ball is to pull it against Tate's hand (and vice-versa).  And they both then grab it with their other hand.  You cannot really argue that Jennings showed real 'control' before Tate had both hands on the ball as well.

Neither makes an independent move with it until they are lying on the ground wrestling over it.

That is a simultaneous catch, within the parameters that referees are expected to make a judgement call.

[indeedproceed]

Another view. This is a simultaneous catch imo.

BSPN and the like are once again not doing their homework.

No it is not.  The ball is against he defenders chest.  The receiver has his hand across the defenders arm.


He did a good job of catching the WR though.


And when on the ground as they roll, you can see the defenders body go between the WR and the ball.  So even if the WR had both hands on he ball, he has no control over it while the defender has it, but touches the defender down.

Except its not against his chest - its against Tate's hands/arm, which are between the ball and Jenning's chest.

In fact, by the time they reach the ground, Tate clearly has _both_ hands around the ball, and between it and Jennings.

Look at it from the beginning of the gif you posted.  The ball does touch Jennings right hand first, but that is literally microseconds before it also touches Tate's left hand.  Jenning's initial 'control' on the ball is to pull it against Tate's hand (and vice-versa).  And they both then grab it with their other hand.  You cannot really argue that Jennings showed real 'control' before Tate had both hands on the ball as well.

Neither makes an independent move with it until they are lying on the ground wrestling over it.

That is a simultaneous catch, within the parameters that referees are expected to make a judgement call.

Its funny we're arguing about this when Tate blatantly pushed off before jumping like he was Michael Jordan or something.