Doc takes Blame for Ray leavin

[craigsagersuit]

In 2011 a deadly HEAT burned through our civilization, pushing humankind to the edge of extinction. Dr. Rivers dedicated his life to the discovery of a cure, and the restoration of humanity. On August 1st 2012, at approximately 7:00 AM he discovered that cure; and at 8:52 he gave his life to defend it. We are his legacy. This is his legend. Light up the darkness.

[Rondooooooooo]

In 2011 a deadly HEAT burned through our civilization, pushing humankind to the edge of extinction. Dr. Rivers dedicated his life to the discovery of a cure, and the restoration of humanity. On August 1st 2012, at approximately 7:00 AM he discovered that cure; and at 8:52 he gave his life to defend it. We are his legacy. This is his legend. Light up the darkness.

lol this is great. does that mean the dog dying is symbolism of ray leaving?

[Finkelskyhook]

Given that our eFG% TOV% and the like are all still in the same ballpark as the first two years I don't think so. Both Ray and Paul have had their TS% climb as they've taken slightly less shots per/36.

Instead it was the decline in our OReb% and FTA/FG% that killed our offense.

I get that. The lack of offensive rebounding has been maddening and a big factor.  What I don't get is why have the shot attempts of the best two offensive players declined at the same time a pass first point guard took over.  Simply getting Paul and Ray more involved and more shots might have improved the offense.

Pierce not getting to the line as well as he used to has been a big part of the FTA/FGA ratio but so has the playcalling.  It's been two point jumpshot after two point jumpshot lately.

A big reason for Pierce not getting to the line as often is that he wasn't as often doing the bogus upfake/charge he's gotten by with so much in his career.

He also wasn't getting the call every single time he did it.

[BballTim]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

  Should we blame Ray for frequently having Shaq's ballhandling tendencies at the guard spot?

do we base that off Turnovers or what?

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

  We base that on cringing when Ray tries to handle the ball on the break or with defenders nearby.

[2short]

Wow such a drawn out topic but happy to report I read all the way through it.  Mind you the time to read it has left my brain only able to add quick points.

Doc saying what he said is perfect, classy, team orientated and the sort of comment that other players will respect.
Ray-i have nothing against him leaving, yes he left for less money but its his choice, i'm sure being moved to bench, rondo and he not getting along, trade rumors etc all added to his choice, ray is one of the classiest players in the league he doesn't deserve our hate 
Rondo haters on hère are amazing, the thread is about doc and his comments but some people HAVE to knock rondo any chance they get
almost forgot ray's sacrifice, I wouldn't say he sacrificed his game the most, kg is/was an mvp candidate who did EVERYTHING for minny
in ray's tenure in boston he did not do a lot of driving, hence a pull up jump shooter is going to get less looks than paul who can score in most every way or our 7' power forward

[bucknersrevenge]

My God...this guy's Ray Allen bias is the stuff of legend. Years from now Dr Niednagel is gonna be going over this thread with a fine tooth comb. It's really too bad that if people want to try to throw the blame at Rondo with little more than baseless accusation when the spotlight is and has been on Ray.

RAY decided he couldn't sacrifice for team anymore.
RAY decided to take trade rumors personal.
RAY was the one that couldn't deal with his declining skill
RAY needed to have his ego massaged by the Miami Heat to feel better about himself as a basketball player.

Sorry. You gets no love. You're outta here. Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

[Mr October]

NBA superstars don't accept loosing their skills gracefully. Ray can still shoot, but he finally became too slow, injury prone, predictable to handle a big role. Doc made the right choice.

And as classy as Ray is, he didn't say the right things on the way out the door. He couldn't. A superstar can't let go of what they once were. It goes against their DNA. He was in a no win situation - backed into a corner by his own ego.

What he did for Boston in 2007-2012 was awesome. But going forward the team is going to be better with Rondo remaining in control, and sharing the back court with Bradley, Terry, Lee, as well as a little Pierce and Green.

Well, to be honest, I think if Ray would've accepted a role as a sixth man the team would've been better.

I love Jet, but Ray would've been a better 6th man.

If he would've stayed, I imagine he would've probably finished some games.

I agree and because Ray was too prideful to take a 6thman role in Boston, he had to leave (his choice). I would have loved to have had him stay and play 25 mpg off the bench.

[Galeto]

A couple of seasons ago, Doc vented to the press about the need to get Pierce and Ray involved more at the expense of freaking Big Baby.  Shot distribution and selection has been a big problem with this team.

[Mr October]

NBA superstars don't accept loosing their skills gracefully. Ray can still shoot, but he finally became too slow, injury prone, predictable to handle a big role. Doc made the right choice.

And as classy as Ray is, he didn't say the right things on the way out the door. He couldn't. A superstar can't let go of what they once were. It goes against their DNA. He was in a no win situation - backed into a corner by his own ego.

What he did for Boston in 2007-2012 was awesome. But going forward the team is going to be better with Rondo remaining in control, and sharing the back court with Bradley, Terry, Lee, as well as a little Pierce and Green.

What did he say? Ray hasnt said a single word


as for Doc, he does a great job of being a prick in his interview

During and more specifically after the miami press conference, Ray said he wanted more involvement in the offense - ie more touches. And then he left for a team where he is going to be a Steve Kerr.

Ray could only go so far when it came to sacrificing for the good of the team.

And its OK. Superstars get cranky, sometimes leave out of spite, when they can't do and get what they once could. The Bird, McHale Parish big three got quite testy and finger pointing at the end. Jordan's return to Washington was a disappointment. Ewing stayed on too long. Barkley and Pippen did a lot of finger pointing. The list goes on and on.

Ray was a great Celtic. He is also human. Thats all I am saying.

[tonyto3690]

Regardless of how you feel about Ray leaving for the Heat, I'm kind of in shock anyone could be so biased as to believe Ray was a positive for our offense.

All Ray did on offense was give us a shooter at the end of games, and for the other 98% of the game, kill shot clock, and force us to take bad shots.  With Ray out, our offense flowed through PP and KG and Rondo and the team was just way better.  BRadley didn't require six screens to get open to get a (just decent) look.  Bradley could play off the ball without us having to run sets just for him and still be an asset on offense.    Ray couldn't do anything unless we spent 20 seconds of shot clock trying to get him open, and it only worked about half the time, and half the time he would miss the shot. 

[2dark]

A couple of seasons ago, Doc vented to the press about the need to get Pierce and Ray involved more at the expense of freaking Big Baby.  Shot distribution and selection has been a big problem with this team.

Thats usually a knock on your pg, but we have specific situation I think. System is suited for older players and limits some possible holes, meaning we are satisfied with living or dieing by jumpshots. Bad problem is when your team has tendency to only shoot long 2s, the other team can force you to go to option you don't want. (i.E. Rondo, or Big baby), just crowd the shooters and leave weakest point alone.
Its almost always effective, except with KG cause of his position and shooting form.

We saw it this year as well with B Bass averaging more deep 2s than best shooter alive.

Teams sacrifice open long looks to our bigs in exchange for completely stopping our outside offense on 2,3 spots.
Throw in "no offensive rebound, run back to D instead" rule and you get our anemic offense eventhough we have best passing PG in the game.

[2dark]

During and more specifically after the miami press conference, Ray said he wanted more involvement in the offense - ie more touches. And then he left for a team where he is going to be a Steve Kerr.

Ray could only go so far when it came to sacrificing for the good of the team.

It is more mental. If I m alpha male for a long time, I d swallow degradation to beta easier in another pack, than in one I was leading for so long. It is only natural

[cman88]

im surprised so many people want to defend ray here...he comes off as selfish and a Diva..

the Celtics are all about doing what is best for WE the team, and not ME the player.

Garnett admitedly HATES playing center, but he sacrificed and did it last year, and is going to most likely do it again this year because it is best for the TEAM.

Having the best Passer in the NBA handling the ball, and starting Bradley over Ray were the best options for the TEAM to win games.

if ray has a problem with that, then good riddance....this team should have ONE goal in mind and thats doing whatever they can to bring home banner #18...if one player thinks HIS needs are more important than that then..good bye

[csfansince60s]

My God...this guy's Ray Allen bias is the stuff of legend. Years from now Dr Niednagel is gonna be going over this thread with a fine tooth comb. It's really too bad that if people want to try to throw the blame at Rondo with little more than baseless accusation when the spotlight is and has been on Ray.

RAY decided he couldn't sacrifice for team anymore.
RAY decided to take trade rumors personal.
RAY was the one that couldn't deal with his declining skill
RAY needed to have his ego massaged by the Miami Heat to feel better about himself as a basketball player.

Sorry. You gets no love. You're outta here. Don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

+1....sums up my sentiments well...also, haven't read the whole thread (too lazy), but the article itself kinda infers the opposite of the title of the thread......

"Doc takes blame for Allen leaving" should read "Doc blames Benedict for leaving" (because Judas couldn't put his pride aside)

Just like Al Pacino as the DEVIL in Devil's Advocate says on more than one occasion in the flick, I can see the devil incarnate in Pat Reilly (man, with that slicked back doo, he looks EVIL)say the following when he knew he got Allen:

"Yesssss...Vanity is definitely my favorite sin". Benedict Arnold and Judas Iscariot both definitely succumbed to it.....Et tu, Allen?

[fairweatherfan06]

I have said from the beginning.  Once Rondo's game was elevated and Ray's diminished in the approach of the staff there would be a clash.  Because it is not in Rondo to make the change easier nor Ray to take it lying down (but for so long). He'd already given up the most of his game to e in Boston, to e asked to give up more was finally too much for him.  Doc made the right call in the approach of the team offense and ultimately Ray went to a place where he'd be better (not necessarily more but better he will be wide open often). Rival or not it was the best fit on a contender (Clippers could've been but they foolishly spent on Jamal Crawford, he needs the ball which won't work with Chris Paul as the distributor) Doc is right hall of famers like Ray, KG, Paul might be ok playing a different role somewhere else, but not having it diminished where they were stars. That's why the contract demand, strangers don't have to know your value but you feel like people who know you would value you more....  Don't be surprised if Ray can do more than you believed he could upon leaving next year.  Just as don't eurprised if Courtney Lee is a better fit, however he won't thrive in the same role as Ray.