Doc takes Blame for Ray leavin

[CelticSooner]

dp

[rayallen1934]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

Nah I won't.  He is improving there and I like that he knows there are better people on the team to be taking shots. 

We contend every year.  He leads the league in assists.  He has more fire than just about any player in the NBA.  I will ride with Rondo any day.



(Also to follow your logic defending Ray, you think Ray would be happy with Rondo taking a lot of jump shots?  What is your point here?)

i should follow with video evidence but im lazy.

If Ray isnt happy because Rondo dominates the ball and shoots the shots then yea Ray Allen should keep his mouth shut.


But In every game i watch, Ray Allen would come off the screen, get the ball 2 people will come in leaving Rondo open for jumper, the pass back is almost immediate....and what does Rondo do? dribble dribble , let the time run out ........and ultimately take his favorite shot.......the impossible shot at the end of the shot clock lol.

.... so what is your point here in regards to this thread?  This is why Ray left?  This has nothing to do with the thread, you are just trying to bash Rondo.

If your point was Rondo shouldn't dominate the ball, then why would Rondo shooting a jump shot solve that?  It has nothing to do with it.

your just assuming things, but your a die hard so i expect that.

I think Rondo is a top 3 point guard in this league.

I dont want him to dominate the ball, i want him to shoot the shots he needs to take to create stability in the offense.....

if your going to blame Ray Allen for running around screens its a cop out.

Rondo has all the offensive opportunities given to him but he doesnt take them and the result is everyone bashing our offense because of Ray Allen

[Snakehead]

our offense has sucked because of this. What Rondo should do is shoot, not hold the ball

I don't think the team would score more if Rondo (a low 40s eFG% long two point shooter at his best) forced more jumpers.

Thank you.

This is like saying Perk should have stepped out and taken jumpers because he would have gotten open looks.

There is nothing "homer" about what he said.  He used logic.

your just assuming things, but your a die hard so i expect that.

I think Rondo is a top 3 point guard in this league.

I dont want him to dominate the ball, i want him to shoot the shots he needs to take to create stability in the offense.....

if your going to blame Ray Allen for running around screens its a cop out.

Rondo has all the offensive opportunities given to him but he doesnt take them and the result is everyone bashing our offense because of Ray Allen

What am I assuming?

And lets say it again, what would a poor shooter shooting long 2's do for our offense in the positive?

I'm not bashing Ray, didn't here, and the issue is simply he is not the right fit anymore.  We need someone who can create their own shot alongside Rondo, especially since Pierce has lost a step in that regard.  Ray did have to have things set up for him and that's fine, he can still knock down the shots, but it was no longer right for our team.

[rayallen1934]

If what Doc said is true, this certainly doesn't make me feel any better about Ray Allen.  If Ray thinks that he should have been the guy with the ball in his hands, creating offense, then he's got a really bad grasp on what's best for the team.

I would say that Paul Pierce would be more entitled to having that beef.  And, I have noticed some friction between Rondo and Pierce as to who should be the primary ball handler over the course of this team's transformation into more of Rondo's team.  They work it out, though, as best they can, on the court. 

Over the past couple of seasons, however, Paul has consistently publicly stated that this is Rondo's team.  The captain is a team player who has learned to sacrifice for the good of the team.  Apparently, the same can't be said for Ray Allen.

WRONG

Ray Allen has been the most to sacrifice and did it better than Pierce and arguably better than Garnett.

The point you made was maybe Ray Allen didnt like it, but thats as far as it goes...

on the court Ray has done nothing to prove what you say.

[rayallen1934]

our offense has sucked because of this. What Rondo should do is shoot, not hold the ball

I don't think the team would score more if Rondo (a low 40s eFG% long two point shooter at his best) forced more jumpers.

Thank you.

This is like saying Perk should have stepped out and taken jumpers because he would have gotten open looks.

There is nothing "homer" about what he said.  He used logic.

Thats fine, but then our offense is what it is, a slow tempo'd halfcourt offense that takes time to load up.....

If Nash was in there we would score much more on offense and would be more efficient on offense

our defense would suck more and our big plays would also suffer because of Rondos hustle and great ability

but the offense would be better

Thats the only points im making, im not saying what he should be doing

although i do think Rondo can shoot OPEN jumpers, but for some reason he hesisates

[Celts Fan 92]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

  Should we blame Ray for frequently having Shaq's ballhandling tendencies at the guard spot?

do we base that off Turnovers or what?

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

stop it man lol i kno Ray ya fav player nd everything but u kno [dang] well he would make horrible jump passes to nobody outta bounds, have a loose handle on da break or dribble it off his foot. everytime he would ignore rondo on da break i would think walkin turnover nd he neva dissapointed

[Galeto]

They were also pretty darn creative in trying to get Ray open for a quick shot.

I thought they were too creative with Ray.  Was it Ray insisting that he move around screens to get shots or was that how Rondo and Doc called it?  Maybe it's too simplistic but when I looked at the Clippers and how Billups, a great great shooter in his own right, got a ton of open shots without having to run obstacle courses like Ray, it made me wonder.  Simple drive and kicks from Paul to Billups got Billups many open threes. Why couldn't that happen here?  It's going to happen in Miami for Ray a lot next season.

In the two seasons the Celtics were a top 10 offense, Pierce and Ray both combined to take around 27 shots per 36 minutes.  27.3 in 2008 (10th offense) and 27 in 2009 when the Celtics were rated 6th on offense.  Last season is skewed because of Rondo being out and Ray becoming a reserve but in 2010, the combined shots fell to 25.3 in 2010 (15th offense) and 25.3 in 2011 (18th offense).  What is correlation or causation, I don't know but it's odd that the ball is placed in Rondo's hands more to facilitate for his teammates and yet the number of shots for the top two offensive options went down.  I've frequently wondered during games why Pierce hasn't shot the ball in ages or why Ray hasn't either. 

[Rondooooooooo]

If what Doc said is true, this certainly doesn't make me feel any better about Ray Allen.  If Ray thinks that he should have been the guy with the ball in his hands, creating offense, then he's got a really bad grasp on what's best for the team.

I would say that Paul Pierce would be more entitled to having that beef.  And, I have noticed some friction between Rondo and Pierce as to who should be the primary ball handler over the course of this team's transformation into more of Rondo's team.  They work it out, though, as best they can, on the court. 

Over the past couple of seasons, however, Paul has consistently publicly stated that this is Rondo's team.  The captain is a team player who has learned to sacrifice for the good of the team.  Apparently, the same can't be said for Ray Allen.

WRONG

Ray Allen has been the most to sacrifice and did it better than Pierce and arguably better than Garnett.

The point you made was maybe Ray Allen didnt like it, but thats as far as it goes...

on the court Ray has done nothing to prove what you say.

how can you say ray sacrificed better than Pierce and KG lol how does one sacrifice better.

[rayallen1934]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

  Should we blame Ray for frequently having Shaq's ballhandling tendencies at the guard spot?

do we base that off Turnovers or what?

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

stop it man lol i kno Ray ya fav player nd everything but u kno [dang] well he would make horrible jump passes to nobody outta bounds, have a loose handle on da break or dribble it off his foot. everytime he would ignore rondo on da break i would think walkin turnover nd he neva dissapointed

bro, everyone on this team does that

Rondo does that, who misses more open layups then him?

Pierce turns it over and its almost always a dunk

Garnett always tries his silly cross court passes

what are you trying to prove?

[Fafnir]

They were also pretty darn creative in trying to get Ray open for a quick shot.

I thought they were too creative with Ray.  Was it Ray insisting that he move around screens to get shots or was that how Rondo and Doc called it?  Maybe it's too simplistic but when I looked at the Clippers and how Billups, a great great shooter in his own right, got a ton of open shots without having to run obstacle courses like Ray, it made me wonder.  Simple drive and kicks from Paul to Billups got Billups many open threes. Why couldn't that happen here?  It's going to happen in Miami for Ray a lot next season.

In the two seasons the Celtics were a top 10 offense, Pierce and Ray both combined to take around 27 shots per 36 minutes.  27.3 in 2008 (10th offense) and 27 in 2009 when the Celtics were rated 6th on offense.  Last season is skewed because of Rondo being out and Ray becoming a reserve but in 2010, the combined shots fell to 25.3 in 2010 (15th offense) and 25.3 in 2011 (18th offense).  What is correlation or causation, I don't know but it's odd that the ball is placed in Rondo's hands more to facilitate for his teammates and yet the number of shots for the top two offensive options went down.  I've frequently wondered during games why Pierce hasn't shot the ball in ages or why Ray hasn't either.

Given that our eFG% TOV% and the like are all still in the same ballpark as the first two years I don't think so. Both Ray and Paul have had their TS% climb as they've taken slightly less shots per/36.

Instead it was the decline in our OReb% and FTA/FG% that killed our offense.

[Celtics18]

If what Doc said is true, this certainly doesn't make me feel any better about Ray Allen.  If Ray thinks that he should have been the guy with the ball in his hands, creating offense, then he's got a really bad grasp on what's best for the team.

I would say that Paul Pierce would be more entitled to having that beef.  And, I have noticed some friction between Rondo and Pierce as to who should be the primary ball handler over the course of this team's transformation into more of Rondo's team.  They work it out, though, as best they can, on the court. 

Over the past couple of seasons, however, Paul has consistently publicly stated that this is Rondo's team.  The captain is a team player who has learned to sacrifice for the good of the team.  Apparently, the same can't be said for Ray Allen.

WRONG

Ray Allen has been the most to sacrifice and did it better than Pierce and arguably better than Garnett.

The point you made was maybe Ray Allen didnt like it, but thats as far as it goes...

on the court Ray has done nothing to prove what you say.

Sure, he sacrificed on the court, but he got tired of making sacrifices for the Boston Celtics, so he left.  For that reason, I say "good riddance, Ray."

I'd rather have guys who are willing to do whatever it takes to help this ball club win.

[2dark]

They were also pretty darn creative in trying to get Ray open for a quick shot.

I thought they were too creative with Ray.  Was it Ray insisting that he move around screens to get shots or was that how Rondo and Doc called it?  Maybe it's too simplistic but when I looked at the Clippers and how Billups, a great great shooter in his own right, got a ton of open shots without having to run obstacle courses like Ray, it made me wonder.  Simple drive and kicks from Paul to Billups got Billups many open threes. Why couldn't that happen here?  It's going to happen in Miami for Ray a lot next season.

No Driving. Simple as that.
Rondo is great in lane but only in open court, of course reason is (in)famous "always leave 10 ft room when guarding Rondo" rule.

Ray got older, and more importantly PP got older. Amount of players capable of single covering them has gone up, meaning there is no collapsing defenses allowing that 3.2 easy open FGAs per game for Ray to get him in rythm. Instead he forces his shot after not shooting for 10 game minutes at the first semi open look he gets.
If he hits, he ll shoot few more, if not it is 2nd part of season typical 4-9, 2-5 3pt,  12 pt game for Ray.

In Miami he ll unfortunately get exactly what he needs, couple of open kickouts per game to get him going.

PP will always have his 12+ shoots per game cause he can create off the dribble unlike Ray, and has green light to do so (often does it even w/o green light as many of us know and hate  when 4th qtr ISO mode kicks in), thats why he is not complaining.

[Interceptor]

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

My god, those endless blocked lay-ups. I feel like there is enough footage to fill a 30-minute Youtube video.

[rayallen1934]

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

My god, those endless blocked lay-ups. I feel like there is enough footage to fill a 30-minute Youtube video.

thats the over reaction that people have given Ray lately.


I doubt you can find 30 minutes of Ray getting blocked


Maybe 5 or 6 plays of fast break blocks

but on the other hand you can find 20 easy missed layups by Rondo.


Ray's missed turnovers, blocked shots have been over magnified lately.

[Galeto]

Given that our eFG% TOV% and the like are all still in the same ballpark as the first two years I don't think so. Both Ray and Paul have had their TS% climb as they've taken slightly less shots per/36.

Instead it was the decline in our OReb% and FTA/FG% that killed our offense.

I get that. The lack of offensive rebounding has been maddening and a big factor.  What I don't get is why have the shot attempts of the best two offensive players declined at the same time a pass first point guard took over.  Simply getting Paul and Ray more involved and more shots might have improved the offense.

Pierce not getting to the line as well as he used to has been a big part of the FTA/FGA ratio but so has the playcalling.  It's been two point jumpshot after two point jumpshot lately.