Doc takes Blame for Ray leavin

[Fafnir]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

I think the C's are very creative in getting the ball to KG/PP for their touches. They were also pretty darn creative in trying to get Ray open for a quick shot.

But as the years go they have to work harder and harder to get those same looks that came easily in the begining.

[BballTim]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

  The main issue with the offense is that we don't get any offensive rebounds. We still shoot the ball well despite having a team that's almost void of players that could create their own shot. Credit Rondo with getting everyone good looks.

[CelticG1]

Doc is deflecting blame off of Rondo but I believe what he's saying is true.

Doc coaches the team, he contructs the game plan, he chooses who will start and who will play, and he calls most of the plays from the sideline.

He's saying Rondo for the most part was doing what Doc asked which was basically have Rondo lead and quarterback the team. This affected Ray probably more than every other player, because of his limited skill set so in turn he wasn't being involved in the offense as much.

This year especially at least I noticed that Doc really gave the keys to Rondo. Rondo was playing the entire game sometimes so clearly Doc was on board with how Rondo was running the team. If Ray didn't like Rondo it probably had just about as much to do with Doc enabling Rondo than an actual personal problem. Its also easier to get mad at a guy like Rondo who some view as a mixed bag spark plug than Doc who is pretty much universally loved by every player and coach in the league

[Fafnir]

The biggest problem with Rondo is he sucks majorly at WANTING to shoot the ball

He sucks at shooting but not as much. Rondo is an ok shooter. His problem is he has extreme fright or hesitation.

A normal point guard would shoot shots with the time running down

but people want to blame Ray for running around multiple screens

Thats what gets people open and Rondo of all people is to blame when he just sits there when there giving him 10 feet.

Its pathetic.

This has definitely been an issue for Rondo in past years, but that definitely turned around this year (especially in the postseason)

Much of what you say Rondo is just "standing there" is them running plays to get a better shot or opportunity often for KG/Pierce more so than Allen. Rondo taking jumpers is something he can get whenever he wants, and it isn't the best shot for the team most of the time.

[BballTim]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

  Should we blame Ray for frequently having Shaq's ballhandling tendencies at the guard spot?

[rayallen1934]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

Nah I won't.  He is improving there and I like that he knows there are better people on the team to be taking shots. 

We contend every year.  He leads the league in assists.  He has more fire than just about any player in the NBA.  I will ride with Rondo any day.



(Also to follow your logic defending Ray, you think Ray would be happy with Rondo taking a lot of jump shots?  What is your point here?)

i should follow with video evidence but im lazy.

If Ray isnt happy because Rondo dominates the ball and shoots the shots then yea Ray Allen should keep his mouth shut.


But In every game i watch, Ray Allen would come off the screen, get the ball 2 people will come in leaving Rondo open for jumper, the pass back is almost immediate....and what does Rondo do? dribble dribble , let the time run out ........and ultimately take his favorite shot.......the impossible shot at the end of the shot clock lol.

[Rondooooooooo]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

The biggest problem with Rondo is he sucks majorly at WANTING to shoot the ball

He sucks at shooting but not as much. Rondo is an ok shooter. His problem is he has extreme fright or hesitation.

A normal point guard would shoot shots with the time running down

but people want to blame Ray for running around multiple screens

Thats what gets people open and Rondo of all people is to blame when he just sits there when there giving him 10 feet.

Its pathetic.

If your weak point is shooting, why force the issue. Thats why teams try to force him to shoot. If Rondo was stupid he'd ignore his shooting woes and shoot anyway, but instead he's smart and plays to his strengths, distributing the ball and running the offense.

The second bolded statement is also wrong. A normal point guard looks for the best option with the best shot in this situation. If time is running down who would you rather shoot, paul or rondo? Paul everytime thats why he looks for him instead of hogging the ball and trying to score himself.

The third bolded part: Thats what is NEEDED to get ray open. He used to be able to create for himself and get his own shot. Now he's older and slower and NEEDS all these screens just to get a shot. It slows the offense down, fact.

[Fafnir]

But In every game i watch, Ray Allen would come off the screen, get the ball 2 people will come in leaving Rondo open for jumper, the pass back is almost immediate....and what does Rondo do? dribble dribble , let the time run out ........and ultimately take his favorite shot.......the impossible shot at the end of the shot clock lol.

This would definitely happen every game, but that happens to every primary ball handler when the defense blows up your offense set.

Rondo took only 40 less layups than jump shots this past season., I don't think the end of the shot clock prayer is his favorite shot by any means.

[CelticSooner]

"But here's what wasn't going to change: The ball's not going to be in Ray's hands more, the ball's going to be in Rondo's hands. That's not going to change. Now that you've voiced you should have the ball more, or you want to start, or you want more freedom in the offense, that's not going to go away.

What's funny about this is Ray will essentially have the same role in Miami that he didn't want in Boston. It's a no go on Rondo's team and a ok to LeBron's?

[rayallen1934]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

  Should we blame Ray for frequently having Shaq's ballhandling tendencies at the guard spot?

do we base that off Turnovers or what?

Ray doesnt do much ball handling nowadays anyway.....and contrary to haters, when he does drive the ball he does finish well. Fastbreaks are his only problem it seems.

[Snakehead]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

"besides Rondo's assist numbers exploding" ... you are ignoring someone running the offense well there.  Rondo doesn't take options away, he sacrifices his own scoring for others.

There is nothing to blame Rondo for here.  Rondo is the best player on the team, he should dominate the ball ala Paul or Nash.  If Ray can't take that, good riddance.  We replaced him and improved with Terry/Lee.

Blame Rondo for having the shooting tendency's of a Shaquille Oneal at the guard spot

Nah I won't.  He is improving there and I like that he knows there are better people on the team to be taking shots. 

We contend every year.  He leads the league in assists.  He has more fire than just about any player in the NBA.  I will ride with Rondo any day.



(Also to follow your logic defending Ray, you think Ray would be happy with Rondo taking a lot of jump shots?  What is your point here?)

i should follow with video evidence but im lazy.

If Ray isnt happy because Rondo dominates the ball and shoots the shots then yea Ray Allen should keep his mouth shut.


But In every game i watch, Ray Allen would come off the screen, get the ball 2 people will come in leaving Rondo open for jumper, the pass back is almost immediate....and what does Rondo do? dribble dribble , let the time run out ........and ultimately take his favorite shot.......the impossible shot at the end of the shot clock lol.

.... so what is your point here in regards to this thread?  This is why Ray left?  This has nothing to do with the thread, you are just trying to bash Rondo.

If your point was Rondo shouldn't dominate the ball, then why would Rondo shooting a jump shot solve that?  It has nothing to do with it.

[rayallen1934]

So Ray leaving really did come down to not getting enough touches and being annoyed that Rondo had the ball the time.  I can't blame him.  It annoys the heck out of me too.  If the results on offense were so great to warrant it, there would be nothing to complain about it but the offense has sucked the last three years.  But no, of course no modification is needed.

I'd be more open to this criticism if there were better options to have the ball, but I don't think asking Paul/KG to create with the ball as much as they did in 07-08 is viable anymore.

Ray always was asked to sacrifice the most of the Big 3.

I get that.  The ages of Ray, KG and Paul versus Rondo muddies culpability for the offense's decline.  But my thing is, since the results on offense weren't all that great beyond Rondo's assist numbers exploding the last three seasons, why not at least try to spread the touches around more?

It's possible for Rondo to dominate the ball like most point guards besides Nash and Chris Paul and still have Pierce try to probe the defense before it's set or have Ray walk into a three like he did hundreds of time before coming to the Celtics.  Putting the ball exclusively in Rondo's hands took away options needlessly.

The Celtics play such an extreme style of Rondo ball that there is room for some compromise that still leaves Rondo incredibly ball dominant.  I hate the lack of adjustments.

The biggest problem with Rondo is he sucks majorly at WANTING to shoot the ball

He sucks at shooting but not as much. Rondo is an ok shooter. His problem is he has extreme fright or hesitation.

A normal point guard would shoot shots with the time running down

but people want to blame Ray for running around multiple screens

Thats what gets people open and Rondo of all people is to blame when he just sits there when there giving him 10 feet.

Its pathetic.

If your weak point is shooting, why force the issue. Thats why teams try to force him to shoot. If Rondo was stupid he'd ignore his shooting woes and shoot anyway, but instead he's smart and plays to his strengths, distributing the ball and running the offense.

The second bolded statement is also wrong. A normal point guard looks for the best option with the best shot in this situation. If time is running down who would you rather shoot, paul or rondo? Paul everytime thats why he looks for him instead of hogging the ball and trying to score himself.

The third bolded part: Thats what is NEEDED to get ray open. He used to be able to create for himself and get his own shot. Now he's older and slower and NEEDS all these screens just to get a shot. It slows the offense down, fact.

see your looking at it from a Celtic Homer point of view

our offense has sucked because of this. What Rondo should do is shoot, not hold the ball

people complain about that all the time, and thats the real reason

unless you want Courtney Lee to go one on one all the time and destroy team chemistry

[Fafnir]

"But here's what wasn't going to change: The ball's not going to be in Ray's hands more, the ball's going to be in Rondo's hands. That's not going to change. Now that you've voiced you should have the ball more, or you want to start, or you want more freedom in the offense, that's not going to go away.

What's funny about this is Ray will essentially have the same role in Miami that he didn't want in Miami. It's a no go on Rondo's team and a ok to LeBron's?

He was pretty much okay with much of the same problems when KG/PP dominated the ball in 07-08.

[Celtics18]

If what Doc said is true, this certainly doesn't make me feel any better about Ray Allen.  If Ray thinks that he should have been the guy with the ball in his hands, creating offense, then he's got a really bad grasp on what's best for the team.

I would say that Paul Pierce would be more entitled to having that beef.  And, I have noticed some friction between Rondo and Pierce as to who should be the primary ball handler over the course of this team's transformation into more of Rondo's team.  They work it out, though, as best they can, on the court. 

Over the past couple of seasons, however, Paul has consistently publicly stated that this is Rondo's team.  The captain is a team player who has learned to sacrifice for the good of the team.  Apparently, the same can't be said for Ray Allen.

[Fafnir]

our offense has sucked because of this. What Rondo should do is shoot, not hold the ball

I don't think the team would score more if Rondo (a low 40s eFG% long two point shooter at his best) forced more jumpers.