knicks fans reactions on lin leaving and having an incompetent owner

[Change]

Is there any doubt Lin will light up Houston? He can do pretty much anything he wants. Doesn't have to share the ball with anyone. I don't know if he lead them to the playoffs. But he will put up crazy number.

[Fafnir]

17 pts, 42% FG, 33% 3pt FG, 3.6 rb, 9 assists


That's a better fit than Lin to me.  He doesn't need to dominate the ball like Lin does and he can distrubute better.  He is a good pick and roll PG and that's what they need to make Amare effective.

He got those numbers dominating the ball just like Lin did.

During Felton's best stretch of play he never got close to what Lin achieved during his brief stretch. Never manufactured so many quality shot attempts at the rim or otherwise broke down the defense. He just got lots of P&R touches from D'Antoni.

Of course his contract correctly values all of this.

I'd love to see usage numbers because I'm not sure he handled the ball like Lin but you could be right.  Makes sense in that offense I suppose.

Regardless, I'd rather have pick and roll being run so I can utitlize Amare in the role he is meant to play than not and have Lin just run at the defense and have Amare stand around.  That makes the whole offense more effective in my mind.

(And also lets emphasize that "brief stretch" please)

Felton shot the ball less, usage of 22 versus 28 but both were heavy heavy P&R players for the majority of the offensive possessions. (Felton also had a still spry Amar'e while the majority of Lin's PT didn't have a similar high usage offensive player on the court with him)

Edit:

Lin was a much more dangerous P&R guy than Felton anyways, if you want to run that with Amar'e or Chandler Lin is very valuable. If you want to run through Melo though, Felton's going to fit better.

[Fafnir]

Is there any doubt Lin will light up Houston? He can do pretty much anything he wants. Doesn't have to share the ball with anyone. I don't know if he lead them to the playoffs. But he will put up crazy number.

I don't know about that, but he'll have his shot.

[celtsfan84]

17 pts, 42% FG, 33% 3pt FG, 3.6 rb, 9 assists


That's a better fit than Lin to me.  He doesn't need to dominate the ball like Lin does and he can distrubute better.  He is a good pick and roll PG and that's what they need to make Amare effective.

He got those numbers dominating the ball just like Lin did.

During Felton's best stretch of play he never got close to what Lin achieved during his brief stretch. Never manufactured so many quality shot attempts at the rim or otherwise broke down the defense. He just got lots of P&R touches from D'Antoni.

Of course his contract correctly values all of this.

I'd love to see usage numbers because I'm not sure he handled the ball like Lin but you could be right.  Makes sense in that offense I suppose.

Regardless, I'd rather have pick and roll being run so I can utitlize Amare in the role he is meant to play than not and have Lin just run at the defense and have Amare stand around.  That makes the whole offense more effective in my mind.

(And also lets emphasize that "brief stretch" please)

I like how Jeremy Lin's 26 games running the Knicks is considered a fluke and an aberration but Raymond Felton's 25-30 games playing well running the Knicks is seen as solid evidence.  

Did you guys know that Felton shot 37% in December as Knicks point guard in a below .500 stretch?

Raymond Felton playing well as Knicks point guard lasted just as long as Jeremy Lin playing well as Knicks point guard.

Except Lin is younger and infinitely more marketable.

[Moranis]

Best part of the story.  Houston cuts Lin in December and then pays him 25 million dollars in July.  Classic.

[celtsfan84]

Best part of the story.  Houston cuts Lin in December and then pays him 25 million dollars in July.  Classic.

How is that classic?  Every GM makes mistakes.  I think working to correct it instead of letting ego get in the way is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[RLewis35]

I will say this, I think there's at least a shot Knicks fans are vindicated and that Lin proves to be a one hit wonder, or at least not nearly as good as he was for his midseason stretch last season.  

For instance, he averaged 21 and 8 for the month of February and then 14 and 6 for the month of March.  

Could it be the rookie wall?  Sure.  But that's an awful quick wall after one month of good play.  And that's not to say he might not have a good career, but he also might simply be a middle of the pack starting PG and not ever be anything truly special.

Still, the Knicks took a terrible PR blow here and will likely lose marketing dollars.  

Even a middle of the pack playmaking PG is a much needed piece to help this squad contend.

I wouldn't blame other teams for passing on such huge tax penalties, but the Knicks have paid similar amounts before and already have foolishly burned their Amnesty to get Chandler when they already had Amar'e.

I'm not saying it's a great move by the Knicks.  I'm just saying that it might not be the franchise-haunting move that ESPN and other media outlets seem to make it out to be.  

I think there's probably a better chance that Lin ends up being a guy who puts up 15 and 6-7 for his career than a guy who puts up 20 and 10.  That's nothing to scoff at, it's still good.  But it's not something that they can't recover from.  It's also not something that Raymond Felton hasn't done before.  

I think the bigger regret they'll probably have it from a marketing standpoint with New York's large Asian American population.  

I cosign this.  I do think from a business perspective it is a mistake from everything I've heard but I don't like Lin's fit with their roster and I don't expect him to make some sort of leap.

Fit within the roster?  Since when do the Knicks care about that?  They didn't when they traded half their team to pair one volume scorer (amare) with another (melo).  They didn't when they added JR Smith and kept him.  They didn't when they got Felton who is a PG who cant hit an open 3.  Why care about that now with Jeremy Lin?

.... so they should keep making mistakes?

I'm fine with scorers at other positions but you need a PG that can distribute if you are going that route.

Felton had a bad year on Portland, no doubt.  However, he 28 and here are his numbers with the Knicks the year before:

17 pts, 42% FG, 33% 3pt FG, 3.6 rb, 9 assists


That's a better fit than Lin to me.  He doesn't need to dominate the ball like Lin does and he can distrubute better.  He is a good pick and roll PG and that's what they need to make Amare effective.

The time to start caring about how players fit with the rest of the roster was not with New York's most marketable player in 10+ years that re-energized a fan base.

Lin doesn't distribute?  How did he get 13+ assists MULTIPLE teams if he doesn't know how to distribute?  And that was playing without Amare and Melo.  Knicks will regret this big time both business-wise and on the court.

[bdm860]

I have a feeling Knicks fans will be changing their tune (or at least should be) soon. 

Lin caught lightning in a bottle.  He came into a perfect situation, where he was in the perfect system, where the stars were hurt, and they needed him to step up, and where he was having an incredible hotstreak. 

That led to an incredible 15 minutes of fame, and like some of the great entertainers who died at the height of their greatness, when he got injured, the flaws in his game had not yet been properly exposed, and everyone only remembers the good times.

I have a feeling once he gets settled in Houston, and the 15 minutes is up when he can't live up to the insane hype that was built on an unprecedented hot streak in a perfect situation, he is just going to be another overpaid backup PG, who no one wants. 

Define overpaid.  MSG's market cap jumped $71 million during his run and dropped $50 million yesterday alone after his departure was announced.

How can a guy who provides enormous return on investment be overpaid from a financial standpoint?  You really think the Knicks won't make back his contract on his marketability alone?  It is impossible to overpay Jeremy Lin.

I think this reasoning uses some faulty finance.

1.   MSG market cap is about 2.67 billion (as of close 7/17).  So a $50m swing is less than 2% which is a pretty typical movement for a stock on any given day.  Not a big deal.  Does it really make sense to attribute one days normal movement to Lin?

2.   But you know what, the day after the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, the market cap increased by $50m!  I guess the Knicks should keep losing because it’s apparently good for business.  See maybe it’s not a good idea to judge the value of one part of company by how the stock moves in one day.

3.   The Knicks acquired Carmelo Anthony on 2/22/12.  The Knicks change in market cap from 2/17 to 2/27? It went from +73m to +43m to -63m to +19m to -49m to -18m?  Man I guess people didn’t know if Carmelo Anthony was worth it, because the market cap was all over the place.  Hmm maybe it’s not a good idea to judge a players worth based on the market cap of a bigger organization.

4.   When the Knicks won 13 out of 14 in 2010 with Raymond Felton, the Knicks market cap increased by $187m!  So Raymond Felton is way more valuable than the Jeremy Lin who only increased value by a measly $70m.

This market cap stuff is not a good way to judge Jeremy Lin’s value.  The market cap moves by tens of millions every day.  A $50m swing is not that rare.
As we saw when the Knicks won 13 of 14 in 2010, winning seems to do more to increase the market cap, than any one player.

[celtsfan84]

I have a feeling Knicks fans will be changing their tune (or at least should be) soon.  

Lin caught lightning in a bottle.  He came into a perfect situation, where he was in the perfect system, where the stars were hurt, and they needed him to step up, and where he was having an incredible hotstreak.  

That led to an incredible 15 minutes of fame, and like some of the great entertainers who died at the height of their greatness, when he got injured, the flaws in his game had not yet been properly exposed, and everyone only remembers the good times.

I have a feeling once he gets settled in Houston, and the 15 minutes is up when he can't live up to the insane hype that was built on an unprecedented hot streak in a perfect situation, he is just going to be another overpaid backup PG, who no one wants.  

Define overpaid.  MSG's market cap jumped $71 million during his run and dropped $50 million yesterday alone after his departure was announced.

How can a guy who provides enormous return on investment be overpaid from a financial standpoint?  You really think the Knicks won't make back his contract on his marketability alone?  It is impossible to overpay Jeremy Lin.

I think this reasoning uses some faulty finance.

1.   MSG market cap is about 2.67 billion (as of close 7/17).  So a $50m swing is less than 2% which is a pretty typical movement for a stock on any given day.  Not a big deal.  Since the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, they lost an average of $34m in market cap a day until free agency started.  So they were losing that kind of money anyway even when people thought Lin would still be around.  Does it really make sense to attribute one days normal movement to Lin?

2.   But you know what, the day after the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, the market cap increased by $50m!  I guess the Knicks should keep losing because it’s apparently good for business.  See maybe it’s not a good idea to judge the value of one part of company by how the stock moves in one day.

3.   The Knicks acquired Carmelo Anthony on 2/22/12.  The Knicks change in market cap from 2/17 to 2/27? It went from +73m to +43m to -63m to +19m to -49m to -18m?  Man I guess people didn’t know if Carmelo Anthony was worth it, because the market cap was all over the place.  Hmm maybe it’s not a good idea to judge a players worth based on the market cap of a bigger organization.

4.   When the Knicks won 13 out of 14 in 2010 with Raymond Felton, the Knicks market cap increased by $187m!  So Raymond Felton is way more valuable than the Jeremy Lin who only increased value by a measly $70m.

This market cap stuff is not a good way to judge Jeremy Lin’s value.  The market cap moves by tens of millions every day.  A $50m swing is not that rare.
As we saw when the Knicks won 13 of 14 in 2010, winning seems to do more to increase the market cap, than any one player.

Maybe not, but if those figures are true, and a $50 million swing is such a small number to MSG and the Knicks, why not bring back Lin?

After all, his contract is just a small fraction of the business they do daily.

Why then let a 23 year old asset leave for nothing?  Wouldn't it make sense to bring your best young asset (and only young asset) back on a number that "isn't a big deal"?

And the highlighted part about Carmelo actually seems reasonably accurate, despite your sarcasm.  The Nuggets have a better record than the Knicks since that trade, by the way.

[bdm860]

I have a feeling Knicks fans will be changing their tune (or at least should be) soon.  

Lin caught lightning in a bottle.  He came into a perfect situation, where he was in the perfect system, where the stars were hurt, and they needed him to step up, and where he was having an incredible hotstreak.  

That led to an incredible 15 minutes of fame, and like some of the great entertainers who died at the height of their greatness, when he got injured, the flaws in his game had not yet been properly exposed, and everyone only remembers the good times.

I have a feeling once he gets settled in Houston, and the 15 minutes is up when he can't live up to the insane hype that was built on an unprecedented hot streak in a perfect situation, he is just going to be another overpaid backup PG, who no one wants.  

Define overpaid.  MSG's market cap jumped $71 million during his run and dropped $50 million yesterday alone after his departure was announced.

How can a guy who provides enormous return on investment be overpaid from a financial standpoint?  You really think the Knicks won't make back his contract on his marketability alone?  It is impossible to overpay Jeremy Lin.

I think this reasoning uses some faulty finance.

1.   MSG market cap is about 2.67 billion (as of close 7/17).  So a $50m swing is less than 2% which is a pretty typical movement for a stock on any given day.  Not a big deal.  Since the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, they lost an average of $34m in market cap a day until free agency started.  So they were losing that kind of money anyway even when people thought Lin would still be around.  Does it really make sense to attribute one days normal movement to Lin?

2.   But you know what, the day after the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, the market cap increased by $50m!  I guess the Knicks should keep losing because it’s apparently good for business.  See maybe it’s not a good idea to judge the value of one part of company by how the stock moves in one day.

3.   The Knicks acquired Carmelo Anthony on 2/22/12.  The Knicks change in market cap from 2/17 to 2/27? It went from +73m to +43m to -63m to +19m to -49m to -18m?  Man I guess people didn’t know if Carmelo Anthony was worth it, because the market cap was all over the place.  Hmm maybe it’s not a good idea to judge a players worth based on the market cap of a bigger organization.

4.   When the Knicks won 13 out of 14 in 2010 with Raymond Felton, the Knicks market cap increased by $187m!  So Raymond Felton is way more valuable than the Jeremy Lin who only increased value by a measly $70m.

This market cap stuff is not a good way to judge Jeremy Lin’s value.  The market cap moves by tens of millions every day.  A $50m swing is not that rare.
As we saw when the Knicks won 13 of 14 in 2010, winning seems to do more to increase the market cap, than any one player.

Maybe not, but if those figures are true, and a $50 million swing is such a small number to MSG and the Knicks, why not bring back Lin?

After all, his contract is just a small fraction of the business they do daily.

Why then let a 23 year old asset leave for nothing?  Wouldn't it make sense to bring your best young asset (and only young asset) back on a number that "isn't a big deal"?

And the highlighted part about Carmelo actually seems reasonably accurate, despite your sarcasm.  The Nuggets have a better record than the Knicks since that trade, by the way.

Actually, I have to admit one big error in my numbers.  In point 1, they didn't lose an average of 34m, they lost 34m total.  After I reread it, I thought wait that doesn't seem right, let me double check.  So that was wrong.  I stand by the rest of what I wrote though.

[celtsfan84]

I have a feeling Knicks fans will be changing their tune (or at least should be) soon.  

Lin caught lightning in a bottle.  He came into a perfect situation, where he was in the perfect system, where the stars were hurt, and they needed him to step up, and where he was having an incredible hotstreak.  

That led to an incredible 15 minutes of fame, and like some of the great entertainers who died at the height of their greatness, when he got injured, the flaws in his game had not yet been properly exposed, and everyone only remembers the good times.

I have a feeling once he gets settled in Houston, and the 15 minutes is up when he can't live up to the insane hype that was built on an unprecedented hot streak in a perfect situation, he is just going to be another overpaid backup PG, who no one wants.  

Define overpaid.  MSG's market cap jumped $71 million during his run and dropped $50 million yesterday alone after his departure was announced.

How can a guy who provides enormous return on investment be overpaid from a financial standpoint?  You really think the Knicks won't make back his contract on his marketability alone?  It is impossible to overpay Jeremy Lin.

I think this reasoning uses some faulty finance.

1.   MSG market cap is about 2.67 billion (as of close 7/17).  So a $50m swing is less than 2% which is a pretty typical movement for a stock on any given day.  Not a big deal.  Since the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, they lost an average of $34m in market cap a day until free agency started.  So they were losing that kind of money anyway even when people thought Lin would still be around.  Does it really make sense to attribute one days normal movement to Lin?

2.   But you know what, the day after the Knicks were eliminated from the playoffs, the market cap increased by $50m!  I guess the Knicks should keep losing because it’s apparently good for business.  See maybe it’s not a good idea to judge the value of one part of company by how the stock moves in one day.

3.   The Knicks acquired Carmelo Anthony on 2/22/12.  The Knicks change in market cap from 2/17 to 2/27? It went from +73m to +43m to -63m to +19m to -49m to -18m?  Man I guess people didn’t know if Carmelo Anthony was worth it, because the market cap was all over the place.  Hmm maybe it’s not a good idea to judge a players worth based on the market cap of a bigger organization.

4.   When the Knicks won 13 out of 14 in 2010 with Raymond Felton, the Knicks market cap increased by $187m!  So Raymond Felton is way more valuable than the Jeremy Lin who only increased value by a measly $70m.

This market cap stuff is not a good way to judge Jeremy Lin’s value.  The market cap moves by tens of millions every day.  A $50m swing is not that rare.
As we saw when the Knicks won 13 of 14 in 2010, winning seems to do more to increase the market cap, than any one player.

Maybe not, but if those figures are true, and a $50 million swing is such a small number to MSG and the Knicks, why not bring back Lin?

After all, his contract is just a small fraction of the business they do daily.

Why then let a 23 year old asset leave for nothing?  Wouldn't it make sense to bring your best young asset (and only young asset) back on a number that "isn't a big deal"?

And the highlighted part about Carmelo actually seems reasonably accurate, despite your sarcasm.  The Nuggets have a better record than the Knicks since that trade, by the way.

Actually, I have to admit one big error in my numbers.  In point 1, they didn't lose an average of 34m, they lost 34m total.  After I reread it, I thought wait that doesn't seem right, let me double check.  So that was wrong.  I stand by the rest of what I wrote though.

I appreciate your research and information.  It would be helpful to know how the market itself performed on each of those days as well.  If those jumps and drops were right alongside the market, then that matters little.

If the market swung even higher than the MSG market cap during that win streak in 2010, then that data means little.  MSG has underperformed the market by 3.3% since letting Lin leave.  So they would be expected to have performed much better.  What was the overall market performance at each of those checkpoints?

However, losing your only young asset for no return whatsoever is a poor idea no matter what business you are in.

Felton / Kidd
Shumpert / JR Smith
Carmelo / Novak
Amar'e / Kurt Thomas
Tyson / Camby

The Knicks have now locked themselves into a mediocre, aging playoff team with little room for improvement and no tradeable assets.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

Best part of the story.  Houston cuts Lin in December and then pays him 25 million dollars in July.  Classic.

How is that classic?  Every GM makes mistakes.  I think working to correct it instead of letting ego get in the way is a good thing, not a bad thing.

This, if anything that's a really good indication that FO will swallow their prides and egos and admit they were wrong and try to make amends to make it right.

Whether they're right, right here still remains to be seen.

[celtsfan84]

Best part of the story.  Houston cuts Lin in December and then pays him 25 million dollars in July.  Classic.

How is that classic?  Every GM makes mistakes.  I think working to correct it instead of letting ego get in the way is a good thing, not a bad thing.

This, if anything that's a really good indication that FO will swallow their prides and egos and admit they were wrong and try to make amends to make it right.

Whether they're right, right here still remains to be seen.

That's exactly how I see it, TP.

Right or wrong on this particular situation, the ability to admit one's mistakes and attempt to correct and learn from them is a very positive quality.

[celticslove]

Is there any doubt Lin will light up Houston? He can do pretty much anything he wants. Doesn't have to share the ball with anyone. I don't know if he lead them to the playoffs. But he will put up crazy number.

I don't know about that, but he'll have his shot.

yeah me too... i still have doubts that he can do that on a nightly basis. still think that just a lucky streak of games.

[celtsfan84]

Is there any doubt Lin will light up Houston? He can do pretty much anything he wants. Doesn't have to share the ball with anyone. I don't know if he lead them to the playoffs. But he will put up crazy number.

I don't know about that, but he'll have his shot.

yeah me too... i still have doubts that he can do that on a nightly basis. still think that just a lucky streak of games.

The question is - do what?

What is the expectation for an $8 million a year point guard?  This isn't a max contract or anything.