Danny and Doc extremely upset with Ray

[byennie]

I Love the apologists using the argument that we the fans have no basis to be mad at allen because he owes us nothing..

if thats the case, then why discuss sports at all? why discuss your teams decisions? obviously they owe you nothing, why discuss contracts being good or bad? its not our money?

we are emotionally invested in these teams, and like it or not when a player who we are emotionally invested in leaves town to our biggest rival for half the money, there is going to be a reaction.

As one of the "apologists", I simply think there is plenty to discuss outside of this type of melodrama. I love trade rumors, draft projections, stats, analysis, and even a dose of pure speculation. I'm very much emotionally wrapped up in my teams. But getting outraged over whether Ray got along with Rondo, or was sufficiently loyal, or wants too many shots? I'll pass, especially when it becomes a personal attack. IMO there is a huge gulf between rationally discussing Ray's decision and flipping out, especially with the signal-to-noise ratio of good information. Does anyone honestly think they can assess what really happened based on sound bites, Twitter posts and whatever else leaks out?

FWIW I think people need to take the LeBron and Howard hate down a notch, too. You'd think they shot everyone's mother.

None of this is to say that people aren't entitled to discuss whatever they want. Just not my cup of tea, and I think the really personal stuff is a bit much.

[ballin]

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think...

Who is telling you how to think?

Or is your objection that some people disagree with your stance?

There are three kinds of posts on here.  The "Ray is a traitor" post,  the "How dare you say Ray is a traitor, it was his right to leave" post, and the "I'll always remember Ray for helping us win in 08" post.  

There is a big difference between the second and third one.  The people who "hate" or are upset and want to boo Ray aren't trying to convince any of the other posters to feel like they do.  

There are a lot of self-righteous "how dare you feel that way about Ray" posters however.

Agreed, this definitely seems to be the case.

I've seen a lot of "you can't be mad at Ray for making a business decisions" and just about zero "How come you don't hate him too?" comments.

Quite frankly, I believe two things: 1) you're entitled to feel the way you want to feel, and 2) while the decision might have been "just business" for Ray, it's NEVER just business for fans.

Fans have every right to be upset, because if you want to break it down into strictly rational terms, we as fans get happy/mad/excited/angry/whatever at a bunch of tall dudes running around and putting a round object in a cylinder. The sole reason why we care is because we enjoy the competition and we're passionate about it. Being a fan is an inherently emotional thing, and emotion is the basis of fan-dom.

What's a rivalry without emotion? If the Celtics don't win a championship, why is it extra bad if the Lakers win it, as opposed to any other team? There's nothing rational about a rivalry... it's about hatred of the other team for past transgressions that shouldn't even matter beyond that particular season... but for fans, they DO matter.

So of course some people are going to get mad when Ray pretty much tells the Celtics to go scratch, and not only that, goes to team up with out biggest rival. Could we understand it or accept it if he had a saint-like reason for doing so? Sure (think Derek Fisher moving to LA so he could provide his kid with better medical care). But Ray doesn't have an excuse. Money, and his family, aren't even the excuse he's using because he's getting paid less.

So basically it's like this: as fans, we have every right to be mad at Ray... the burden is on HIM to make a defense for his actions. And he simply hasn't acquitted himself.

[wahz]

I Love the apologists using the argument that we the fans have no basis to be mad at allen because he owes us nothing..

if thats the case, then why discuss sports at all? why discuss your teams decisions? obviously they owe you nothing, why discuss contracts being good or bad? its not our money?

we are emotionally invested in these teams, and like it or not when a player who we are emotionally invested in leaves town to our biggest rival for half the money, there is going to be a reaction.

I wonder if some of the posters telling those who disagree with ray how to think and that he owes us nothing were so defensive of Ainge when he traded perk...afterall, danny owes us nothing, its just business right?

I am glad Danny was doing everything he could try to do to upgrade the team. He isn't perfect but he was trying.

I have some doubt in my mind that Ray was giving it his all. The fact that he shot free throws like my grandma against the team he ran too simply leaves me with some doubt. I don't mean it was intentional but it certainly was odd. I suspect most would agree his mind was elsewhere. So I'm not too happy with Ray as part of the organization but would have like to have seen him not screw us on his way out the door by probably costing us the need to use the mle on Terry

[Celtics18]

TP to Ballin,

What a rational post about the irrationality about being a sports fan. 

[byennie]

Agreed, this definitely seems to be the case.

I've seen a lot of "you can't be mad at Ray for making a business decisions" and just about zero "How come you don't hate him too?" comments.

That's a bit like saying...

A bunch of guys got caught throwing rocks at a dog. Hey! How dare you throw rocks at that poor dog! Reply: don't be so self-righteous, we're not making YOU throw rocks!

Point being, it's not really a symmetric argument just because there are two sides.

Quite frankly, I believe two things: 1) you're entitled to feel the way you want to feel, and 2) while the decision might have been "just business" for Ray, it's NEVER just business for fans.

Fans have every right to be upset, because if you want to break it down into strictly rational terms, we as fans get happy/mad/excited/angry/whatever at a bunch of tall dudes running around and putting a round object in a cylinder. The sole reason why we care is because we enjoy the competition and we're passionate about it. Being a fan is an inherently emotional thing, and emotion is the basis of fan-dom.

I agree that people have the "right" to feel any way they want, but that doesn't make it justified. You can be emotional and still draw a different line than the folks tearing Ray apart.

What's a rivalry without emotion? If the Celtics don't win a championship, why is it extra bad if the Lakers win it, as opposed to any other team? There's nothing rational about a rivalry... it's about hatred of the other team for past transgressions that shouldn't even matter beyond that particular season... but for fans, they DO matter.

So of course some people are going to get mad when Ray pretty much tells the Celtics to go scratch, and not only that, goes to team up with out biggest rival. Could we understand it or accept it if he had a saint-like reason for doing so? Sure (think Derek Fisher moving to LA so he could provide his kid with better medical care). But Ray doesn't have an excuse. Money, and his family, aren't even the excuse he's using because he's getting paid less.

So basically it's like this: as fans, we have every right to be mad at Ray... the burden is on HIM to make a defense for his actions. And he simply hasn't acquitted himself.

Your description of the situation is accurate. Fans are passionate and competitive and will forever boo the opposition, "hate" the rival and so forth. Emotion is fueling this debate, but it's not just about the more passionate fans hating Ray Allen. You can be completely and utterly passionate about the Celtics and still defend the players' personal decisions.

[fairweatherfan06]

IF Danny had traded Ray,  it would have NEVER been to the freakin HEAT or LAKERS.  Maybe to the Bulls , Orlando, Hawks, ect , he wood have never traded Ray to the HEAT.  He would have been tared and feathered.  Danny bleeds GREEN first too.

Of all the places to leave for , and go to for LESS MONEY , and leave behind what WOULD HAVE BEEN a lasting legacy with his name mentioned with  Bird, GArrnet , and Pierce forever .... he threw that away as if it were WORTH NOTHING.....    ...he truley was BRAIN WASHED and NOT thinking clearly.

So now he gets his name tarnished FOREVER , just like BENEDICT ARNOLD.... who was a skilled leader , he felt under appreciated as well and thought of himself more than he was worth , threw his lot in with the enemy .

I 'm no fool ...He was not caring about his family, it was all done to spit on the face of the Celtics organization, team members, and the fans.  

His newspaper article is nothing but a fake pile of garbage

Ray is selfish moron.  

Really man?  You serious  So Rondo for Gasol wasn't being discussed?     Danny would trade his son Austin to  the Heat if Lebron James was what he was getting back.  Danny wants to win and no loyalty to any player gets in the way of that.  Ask Perk

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

IF Danny had traded Ray,  it would have NEVER been to the freakin HEAT or LAKERS.  Maybe to the Bulls , Orlando, Hawks, ect , he wood have never traded Ray to the HEAT.  He would have been tared and feathered.  Danny bleeds GREEN first too.

Of all the places to leave for , and go to for LESS MONEY , and leave behind what WOULD HAVE BEEN a lasting legacy with his name mentioned with  Bird, GArrnet , and Pierce forever .... he threw that away as if it were WORTH NOTHING.....    ...he truley was BRAIN WASHED and NOT thinking clearly.

So now he gets his name tarnished FOREVER , just like BENEDICT ARNOLD.... who was a skilled leader , he felt under appreciated as well and thought of himself more than he was worth , threw his lot in with the enemy .

I 'm no fool ...He was not caring about his family, it was all done to spit on the face of the Celtics organization, team members, and the fans.  

His newspaper article is nothing but a fake pile of garbage

Ray is selfish moron.  

Really man?  You serious  So Rondo for Gasol wasn't being discussed?    Danny would trade his son Austin to  the Heat if Lebron James was what he was getting back.  Danny wants to win and no loyalty to any player gets in the way of that.  Ask Perk

Yep he would but he didn't with Ray and I assume he could have (of course he would do it if he was receiving those caliber players in return, he would have no choice). You think Mia didn't want to do a sign and trade LOL? They would have been able to keep their mini-exception. I'm guessing the Celts (DA) chose to get nothing instead of further helping Mia.

Also the Lakers aren't in our conference we would only have to face them in the finals, so I don't think he minds trading with them as much, like that guy suggest, as long as we were getting what DA believes is the better of the deal.

[Celtics18]

Agreed, this definitely seems to be the case.

I've seen a lot of "you can't be mad at Ray for making a business decisions" and just about zero "How come you don't hate him too?" comments.

That's a bit like saying...

A bunch of guys got caught throwing rocks at a dog. Hey! How dare you throw rocks at that poor dog! Reply: don't be so self-righteous, we're not making YOU throw rocks!

Point being, it's not really a symmetric argument just because there are two sides.

Throwing rocks at a dog is probably illegal and is definitely pathological and twisted.  Throwing figurative "rocks" at a pro athlete who left the hometown team to play for the rival team isn't really in the same ball park as far as behavior goes.  

[fairweatherfan06]

IF Danny had traded Ray,  it would have NEVER been to the freakin HEAT or LAKERS.  Maybe to the Bulls , Orlando, Hawks, ect , he wood have never traded Ray to the HEAT.  He would have been tared and feathered.  Danny bleeds GREEN first too.

Of all the places to leave for , and go to for LESS MONEY , and leave behind what WOULD HAVE BEEN a lasting legacy with his name mentioned with  Bird, GArrnet , and Pierce forever .... he threw that away as if it were WORTH NOTHING.....    ...he truley was BRAIN WASHED and NOT thinking clearly.

So now he gets his name tarnished FOREVER , just like BENEDICT ARNOLD.... who was a skilled leader , he felt under appreciated as well and thought of himself more than he was worth , threw his lot in with the enemy .

I 'm no fool ...He was not caring about his family, it was all done to spit on the face of the Celtics organization, team members, and the fans.  

His newspaper article is nothing but a fake pile of garbage

Ray is selfish moron.  

Really man?  You serious  So Rondo for Gasol wasn't being discussed?    Danny would trade his son Austin to  the Heat if Lebron James was what he was getting back.  Danny wants to win and no loyalty to any player gets in the way of that.  Ask Perk

Yep he would but he didn't with Ray and I assume he could have (of course he would do it if he was receiving those caliber players in return, he would have no choice). You think Mia didn't want to do a sign and trade LOL? They would have been able to keep their mini-exception. I'm guessing the Celts (DA) chose to get nothing instead of further helping Mia.

Also the Lakers aren't in our conference we would only have to face them in the finals, so I don't think he minds trading with them as much, like that guy suggest, as long as we were getting what DA believes is the better of the deal.

Naw Miami had nothing we wanted.  Doc said maybe if they wanted to give us Dwayne Wade.  Wasn't about not helping MIA it was about them not having anything we wanted that they could trade for Ray.

[TheReaLPuba]

Ray Allen nuked the Mayo deal.

Yes maybe he was traded but it never happened.

Ok you're hurt fine.

But the C's obviously viewed that as a mistake and offered Ray no other organization would offer him.

More money, better security, another championship run or two, and his jersey retired in a Celtics uniform....he would have had a legacy.

Now Ray Allen belongs to no team.

He is a hired gun.

That is his lasting career legacy.

[byennie]

Throwing rocks at a dog is probably illegal and is definitely pathological and twisted.  Throwing figurative "rocks" at a pro athlete who left the hometown team to play for the rival team isn't really in the same ball park as far as behavior goes.  

I'm not saying they are equally wrong. Just analogous situations. One group of people (Ray Allen apologists) discovers another group (Ray Allen haters) attacking an individual (Ray Allen). The original observation implied that the haters are the civil ones for not asking the defenders to join them, but that's just a logical consequence of the situation.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

IF Danny had traded Ray,  it would have NEVER been to the freakin HEAT or LAKERS.  Maybe to the Bulls , Orlando, Hawks, ect , he wood have never traded Ray to the HEAT.  He would have been tared and feathered.  Danny bleeds GREEN first too.

Of all the places to leave for , and go to for LESS MONEY , and leave behind what WOULD HAVE BEEN a lasting legacy with his name mentioned with  Bird, GArrnet , and Pierce forever .... he threw that away as if it were WORTH NOTHING.....    ...he truley was BRAIN WASHED and NOT thinking clearly.

So now he gets his name tarnished FOREVER , just like BENEDICT ARNOLD.... who was a skilled leader , he felt under appreciated as well and thought of himself more than he was worth , threw his lot in with the enemy .

I 'm no fool ...He was not caring about his family, it was all done to spit on the face of the Celtics organization, team members, and the fans.  

His newspaper article is nothing but a fake pile of garbage

Ray is selfish moron.  

Really man?  You serious  So Rondo for Gasol wasn't being discussed?    Danny would trade his son Austin to  the Heat if Lebron James was what he was getting back.  Danny wants to win and no loyalty to any player gets in the way of that.  Ask Perk

Yep he would but he didn't with Ray and I assume he could have (of course he would do it if he was receiving those caliber players in return, he would have no choice). You think Mia didn't want to do a sign and trade LOL? They would have been able to keep their mini-exception. I'm guessing the Celts (DA) chose to get nothing instead of further helping Mia.

Also the Lakers aren't in our conference we would only have to face them in the finals, so I don't think he minds trading with them as much, like that guy suggest, as long as we were getting what DA believes is the better of the deal.

Naw Miami had nothing we wanted.  Doc said maybe if they wanted to give us Dwayne Wade.  Wasn't about not helping MIA it was about them not having anything we wanted that they could trade for Ray.

Again, I said we would trade with them if it was for a great caliber player but we could have taken something other than the nothing we chose... I just think since Ray's worth doesn't bring us anything of much value (the cHeat have nothing to give... and even so, what we would ask for would be too much as they already won and can get Ray w/o helping us) and us not wanting to help the cHeat... we chose to take nothing. I mean, the scraps they would offer wouldn't be enough to outweigh giving them their mini-exception back for them to get even better.