Jeff Green - what were our other options?

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Last minute trades are different then the FA period.



Again, going by what we do know:

All we know is that the Celtics gave a backup SF a 4 year, 9 million dollar contract, coming off a heart issue and there was absolutely no talk of another team. 


In that case, it looks like the Celtics overpayed. 

There was talk, it just didn't come from an objective source.

You guys use words like "absolutely no talk" and expect everyone to agree... HOW MANY TIMES do I have to say, just because WE didn't hear the talk (I know "we" think we are important and we need to hear all talk for it to be real), doesn't mean "there was absolutely no talk of another team"

[Moranis]

Nic Batum is out there.  Kris Humphries is available. 

But my problem isn't the amount of money in the first year, it was the total destruction of the future cap space.  If Green wouldn't accept a 1 yr, 9/10 million dollar deal then let him walk as he wasn't getting 4 years, 36 million from anyone else. 

Just because you have cap space doesn't mean you should waste it on role players and destroy all future flexibility ala the Detroit Pistons.

What future cap space? There would be none. By the time Green's contract would actually have a real impact on our salary cap, we'll be either way under the salary cap with the ability to sign free agents, or he'll be an expiring contract which will be easily moved with an athletic player, who's skilled, and still quite young.

And this situation is not even remotely similar to what went on with Detroit.

I see the similarities.  The only difference was the Celtics only gave out one of these contracts where Detroit gave out two. 

  Detroit let Okur walk so they'd have money to sign Ben Wallace, and then watched Wallace go to the Bulls. They also drafted Darko when Wade and Bosh were available. The team was toast well before they signed CV and Gordon.

Okur left Detroit 5 years before ben wallace left.  They didn't re-sign Okur so they could re-sign Rasheed, who did in fact re-sign with Detroit.

Of course they were done as a competitor, the point was that by wasting the cap money on those two guys, they destroyed any shot of competing for the next five years.  

[wdleehi]

Can someone explain to me how when everyone healthy, Jeff Green is not a backup even though he is coming off the bench?

Would you just call Manu Ginobili a back up? He comes off the bench for San Antonio. Would you call Terry a back up to Stevenson on the Mavs a couple years ago?

Sometimes a player is best utilized on the bench for a particular team, even though he has starter talent.

Green is probably the 5th best player on the Celtics. He is a top 20 small forward in the NBA. He is not just a back up. 

Can we stop insulting the level an Manu by comparing him to Green?  

[spinz]

lopez reportedly just signed 15 mil per year for 4 years with nets.
Id say that makes it look like we didnt overpay for green.

[CelticG1]

I would just like to see some responses to what people would have done differently within the parameters of the new CBA.

Even with the assumption that the players you would hypothetically sign would agree to the contract

[wdleehi]

I would just like to see some responses to what people would have done differently within the parameters of the new CBA.

Even with the assumption that the players you would hypothetically sign would agree to the contract

Offer him a shorter contract with less money.  If some team is out there willing to beat it, be willing to match it. 

[wdleehi]

lopez reportedly just signed 15 mil per year for 4 years with nets.
Id say that makes it look like we didnt overpay for green.

Since they overpayed, it's OK if the Celtics overpay?

[Mr October]

Everyone that says why are we bidding against ourselves and that no one was going to pay him that, must be some sort of insider with knowledge no one else has! All of that is speculation, I prefer to trust that DA wouldn't pay him if he didn't need to. You see he let RA hit the dirt and we had the money to pay him 3/27 b/c of his BR! I trust that there are things behind the scenes I don't know and DA does, so I can't judge what was the right or workable amount!

Where are the rumors that other team were interested? 


We hear rumors about Ronnie Brewer, but not Green?

It is possible. Heck top 20 player Deron Williams was traded to the Nets a year and a half ago without a peep of rumor of where he was going beforehand. All we knew was that things were souring in Utah. Not every bit of information leaks to rumor land first.

And based on listening to guys like Ric Bucher describe the nature of rumors, teams often leak rumor info to help gage public reaction to trades and such. Why would it be in anyone's interest to leak a Jeff Green interest rumor when the Celtics and Green had supreme mutual interest in resigning? It would have been a waste of time.

Yep. Perk trade is an example. So b/c we heard about no other teams, does that mean we are the ONLY team that wanted Green? Does that make ANY sense? I don't care if JG was coming off of two ankle surgeries some team would surely have interest in him!

I don't know, I guess people are right, we heard nothing about any other team with interest... that means he had to sign with us because no other teams wanted him at all...

Jeff thank your lucky stars we wanted you or you would be out of the league!


Or just maybe, We "The All Knowing CB", may not actually know much, if anything at all...

We have said "we do not know"



All we know is that the Celtics gave a backup SF a 4 year, 9 million dollar contract, coming off a heart issue and there was absolutely no talk of another team.  


In that case, it looks like the Celtics overpayed.  

Calling Green just a back up is mislabeling him. He has all the potential still to have a Lamar Odom on the Lakers type of impact. He's a young guy and the C's are also paying a little extra for potential.

I think a fair market value for Green is about 28/4, just above the MLE. If the Celtics didn't have Pierce, he'd be a starter. I think Green is somewhere between the 15th-20th best small forward in the NBA, along with the Marvin Williams types. So yes I agree that 34 or 36/4 is over paying a little, but only a little. Considering that the Celtics didn't have better options, what were they to do? Risk losing him and throwing away a chance to beat Miami?

As for returning from a heart condition. When that happens a player either can play or can't. There is no mysterious in between. Its not like he had drastic knee or back surgery, where the structure is unstable for the rest of his life.

Is he the starting SF on this team when all are healthy?



Has he ever been as good as Odom?


The answer to both of course is "no"

Note that i said he is being paid based on potential. He has the potential to be a Odom level / just below all star player. Lets see what he does in a full season for the Celtics, when he recognizes that he is more than just a role player that needed to 'fit in'.

I agree that Green is overpaid, but barely.

And I think he is higher quality than being labeled a backup. For all we know he could start alongside KG. In fact I bet Boston's best line up will be when they play a speed game for stretches with: Rondo, Bradley, Pierce, Green, Garnett.

[Fan from VT]

Everyone that says why are we bidding against ourselves and that no one was going to pay him that, must be some sort of insider with knowledge no one else has! All of that is speculation, I prefer to trust that DA wouldn't pay him if he didn't need to. You see he let RA hit the dirt and we had the money to pay him 3/27 b/c of his BR! I trust that there are things behind the scenes I don't know and DA does, so I can't judge what was the right or workable amount!

Where are the rumors that other team were interested? 


We hear rumors about Ronnie Brewer, but not Green?

It is possible. Heck top 20 player Deron Williams was traded to the Nets a year and a half ago without a peep of rumor of where he was going beforehand. All we knew was that things were souring in Utah. Not every bit of information leaks to rumor land first.

And based on listening to guys like Ric Bucher describe the nature of rumors, teams often leak rumor info to help gage public reaction to trades and such. Why would it be in anyone's interest to leak a Jeff Green interest rumor when the Celtics and Green had supreme mutual interest in resigning? It would have been a waste of time.

Yep. Perk trade is an example. So b/c we heard about no other teams, does that mean we are the ONLY team that wanted Green? Does that make ANY sense? I don't care if JG was coming off of two ankle surgeries some team would surely have interest in him!

I don't know, I guess people are right, we heard nothing about any other team with interest... that means he had to sign with us because no other teams wanted him at all...

Jeff thank your lucky stars we wanted you or you would be out of the league!


Or just maybe, We "The All Knowing CB", may not actually know much, if anything at all...

We have said "we do not know"



All we know is that the Celtics gave a backup SF a 4 year, 9 million dollar contract, coming off a heart issue and there was absolutely no talk of another team.  


In that case, it looks like the Celtics overpayed.  

Calling Green just a back up is mislabeling him. He has all the potential still to have a Lamar Odom on the Lakers type of impact. He's a young guy and the C's are also paying a little extra for potential.

I think a fair market value for Green is about 28/4, just above the MLE. If the Celtics didn't have Pierce, he'd be a starter. I think Green is somewhere between the 15th-20th best small forward in the NBA, along with the Marvin Williams types. So yes I agree that 34 or 36/4 is over paying a little, but only a little. Considering that the Celtics didn't have better options, what were they to do? Risk losing him and throwing away a chance to beat Miami?

As for returning from a heart condition. When that happens a player either can play or can't. There is no mysterious in between. Its not like he had drastic knee or back surgery, where the structure is unstable for the rest of his life.

I think the Marvin Williams comparison is pretty accurate, and that's the problem:
Marvin: CBA favored Players
Green: CBA adjusted in favor of owners
Marvin: 37 million for FIVE years
Green: 36 million for FOUR years
Marvin: Just over the full MLE at the time.
Green: Almost double (about 175%) of the full MLE at the time
Marvin: No missed seasons
Green: Missed season due to heart surgery.

[wdleehi]

Potential still? 


He is going to be 26 and has multiple years of comparable numbers. 


I think we know who he is going to be as a player.

[spinz]

Since they overpayed, it's OK if the Celtics overpay?

Not really, but it does make me feel better knowing that they probably over paid more.

[Mr October]

Can someone explain to me how when everyone healthy, Jeff Green is not a backup even though he is coming off the bench?

Would you just call Manu Ginobili a back up? He comes off the bench for San Antonio. Would you call Terry a back up to Stevenson on the Mavs a couple years ago?

Sometimes a player is best utilized on the bench for a particular team, even though he has starter talent.

Green is probably the 5th best player on the Celtics. He is a top 20 small forward in the NBA. He is not just a back up.  

Can we stop insulting the level an Manu by comparing him to Green?  

C'mon. Thats all you have as a response?

I was using an extreme example to make a point. Manu is obviously a far better player than Green. All I was saying is that just because a player comes off the bench, doesn't mean they are just a back up.

But I guess you aren't even going to budge a little. Thats fine. I look forward to cheering for this team next year and hopefully we can all enjoy some big games out of Green along the way.

Peace.

[wdleehi]

Can someone explain to me how when everyone healthy, Jeff Green is not a backup even though he is coming off the bench?

Would you just call Manu Ginobili a back up? He comes off the bench for San Antonio. Would you call Terry a back up to Stevenson on the Mavs a couple years ago?

Sometimes a player is best utilized on the bench for a particular team, even though he has starter talent.

Green is probably the 5th best player on the Celtics. He is a top 20 small forward in the NBA. He is not just a back up.  

Can we stop insulting the level an Manu by comparing him to Green?  

C'mon. Thats all you have as a response?

I was using an extreme example to make a point. Manu is obviously a far better player than Green. All I was saying is that just because a player comes off the bench, doesn't mean they are just a back up.

But I guess you aren't even going to budge a little. Thats fine. I look forward to cheering for this team next year and hopefully we can all enjoy some big games out of Green along the way.

Peace.

No.  You are comparing what a top third player on a title team is making to Green. 

[MVP]

I don't really care about Green's salary for years 1-3. With Rondo/KG/Terry/Bass all signed for 3 more years and Pierce for 2 more, we are going to be over the cap anyway and will only have the MLE to use. If the 4th year is fully guaranteed I will be dissapointed since it will take away from our flexibility when the new 3 year window ends. But I don't think we know the full contract terms yet and if the 4th year is a team option or only partially guaranteed then it's a good deal for us IMO.

[kozlodoev]

Potential still? 


He is going to be 26 and has multiple years of comparable numbers. 


I think we know who he is going to be as a player.

We know who he's going to be when playing with Durant and Westbrook. The jury is still out who he is playing with Rondo.