Chris Paul is the best player in the NBA

[wdleehi]

CP3's never made it out of the 2nd round.   Guess that means he's not a leader, either.

At least, Lebron has made the Finals...twice.

Theres always a misconception that "Lebron did it all by himself"
Put up Lebron's Cavs teammates up against Chris' Hornets teammates
I rest my case

You really should do that, because David West is better than any teammate LeBron James ever had up until D-Wade came along.

Tyson Chandler was better the Lebron's teammates.

Who was Chris Paul's second scorer? Its like saying Iverson had Mutumbo when Mutumbo rarely scores

Both Tyson and David West need to be fed the ball in order to score. Kinda like Brandon Bass, where Rondo can make him look really good. Morris Peterson was ok

While Lebron had Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshal, Damon Jones, Daniel Gibson (who scored 30 in game 6 of the EFC), and Sasha Pavlovic. Even Big Z can rack up points. Yup, Lebron did it by himself

Didn't most big men scorers need someone to feed them?


I don't remember Shaq taking the ball from the top of the key to the low block to often.


Duncan?

KG?

Mchale?

Someone had to feed them the ball. 


Larry Hughes?  Really? 


Gibson?  Lebron's version of Eddie House

[StartOrien]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

[Schintzius]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name a player in the entire league who's done more in the playoffs without winning a ring than LeBron? 

The guy I always think of (and I really hope LBJ's career ends up just like his (flashy highlights, big numbers, no rings)) is Dominique Wilkins.

[fairweatherfan]

CP3's never made it out of the 2nd round.   Guess that means he's not a leader, either.

At least, Lebron has made the Finals...twice.

Theres always a misconception that "Lebron did it all by himself"
Put up Lebron's Cavs teammates up against Chris' Hornets teammates
I rest my case

You really should do that, because David West is better than any teammate LeBron James ever had up until D-Wade came along.

Tyson Chandler was better the Lebron's teammates.

Who was Chris Paul's second scorer? Its like saying Iverson had Mutumbo when Mutumbo rarely scores

Both Tyson and David West need to be fed the ball in order to score. Kinda like Brandon Bass. Morris Peterson was ok

While Lebron had Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshal, Damon Jones, Daniel Gibson (who scored 30 in game 6 of the EFC), and Sasha Pavlovic. Even Big Z can rack up points. Yup, Lebron did it by himself

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

Given that earlier in the thread he identified those same teammates as spot-up shooters who got open off LeBron's penetration, and now they're scorers who don't need to be fed the ball to score, he seems to have a drastically different view as himself.

[indeedproceed]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

I've got no qualms with that analysis, but I'd like to phrase it a little differently.

I think that squad was constructed perfectly to complement their respective talents with LeBrons, but it had a low ceiling. Its the difference between the Spurs' recent team built around Dirk, and LeBron's Cavs team.

One team had HOF talent, and a smartly and uniquely fit supporting cast.

LeBron is maximizing a Honda civic in Cleveland. But Dirk was messing around with a Lexus.

[fairweatherfan]

Out of curiosity, can anyone name a player in the entire league who's done more in the playoffs without winning a ring than LeBron? 

The guy I always think of (and I really hope LBJ's career ends up just like his (flashy highlights, big numbers, no rings)) is Dominique Wilkins.

I meant current players - all-time it's gotta be Elgin Baylor, with Karl Malone as the modern representative.  Nique never even made the conference finals if I remember correctly.

[wdleehi]

I still put Paul in the top 5.


Lebron
Howard
Durrant
Paul
Wade

Just not number 1

[slamtheking]

I still put Paul in the top 5.


Lebron
Howard
Durrant
Paul
Wade

Just not number 1

as much as it'll make me puke by saying this (and with my 5000th post no less), I'd still take Kobe over Paul too.  In a close game, I would be far more concerned playing against Kobe than CP3.

If I was building a team, I'd take CP3 for his age but if I want to win now, I'm taking (puke) kobe.

[StartOrien]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

I've got no qualms with that analysis, but I'd like to phrase it a little differently.

I think that squad was constructed perfectly to complement their respective talents with LeBrons, but it had a low ceiling. Its the difference between the Spurs' recent team built around Dirk, and LeBron's Cavs team.

One team had HOF talent, and a smartly and uniquely fit supporting cast.

LeBron is maximizing a Honda civic in Cleveland. But Dirk was messing around with a Lexus.

Rental car from Avis.

There's some truth there, and I'll make one last point b/c I don't want to derail the conversation too far:

But I don't think the difference from Lebron's Cavs and Dirk's Mavs were as significant as you suggest. In fact, they're surprisingly similar - though the Cavs counterparts are kind of 80% of their Mavs equivalent (Varejao isn't Chandler but he's kind of close, Mo Williams isn't the jet but he's kind of close).

Again, I don't want to derail things too far with a random thought I had which was really wondering if you could argue solely from a basketball stand point that staying on the Cavs might've been a better move for Lebron.

[guava_wrench]

CP3's never made it out of the 2nd round.   Guess that means he's not a leader, either.

At least, Lebron has made the Finals...twice.

Theres always a misconception that "Lebron did it all by himself"
Put up Lebron's Cavs teammates up against Chris' Hornets teammates
I rest my case

You really should do that, because David West is better than any teammate LeBron James ever had up until D-Wade came along.

Tyson Chandler was better the Lebron's teammates.

Who was Chris Paul's second scorer? Its like saying Iverson had Mutumbo when Mutumbo rarely scores

Both Tyson and David West need to be fed the ball in order to score. Kinda like Brandon Bass, where Rondo can make him look really good. Morris Peterson was ok

While Lebron had Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, Donyell Marshal, Damon Jones, Daniel Gibson (who scored 30 in game 6 of the EFC), and Sasha Pavlovic. Even Big Z can rack up points. Yup, Lebron did it by himself

Please look at you second and third paragraphs to see how you are rigging the analysis against Lebron. How are the guys you list who played with Lebron more dynamic players than West? West is way more skilled at creating a shot.

And this is irrelevant because both CP3 and Lebron excel at getting the ball to those kinds of guys. CP3 having a guy like Peja while he can still play is a goldmine.

It is hard to discuss this if you aren't going to be consistent in the standards you apply to Lebron and CP3.

[Fafnir]

-2009 EFC  (aside from that hail mary jumpshot that won game 2)

I know everyone self edits their own memories to justify their opinions that are most often created emotionally, but do you remember that series at all?

LeBron was a MONSTER that series, his performance was one of the best in playoff history in ANY series ever. He just got virtually no help at all.

He averaged 38.5 PPG 8.3 RPG 8 APG on .591 TS% averaging 40+ MPG. He got to the line 16 times per game that series! He basically averaged that series what he did in Boston in game 7 east semis in 07-08 for AN ENTIRE SERIES.

He also was the only one who could guard either Rashard Lewis or Hedo and whenever he swapped the other would kill the Cavs. If they rested him for more than 8 minutes a game they'd get outscored massively because they couldn't score if he wasn't on the court against the Magic.

Lebron has monster numbers all the time, but still fails in the clutch, which means he's not a leader. So whats your point?

Except for the clutch shot he made to win Game 2, that convientently doesn't count for some reason?

What about the 3 point play he drew in game 1 to take a lead before Lewis hit a three to give Orlando a 1 point win. Is he not clutch when he drew the defense and got Delonte West (40% from 3 that year) a wide open look to win the game right after that?

He also drew a foul and hit two free throws to send it to OT in game 4. (He'd also draw another foul and hit a free throw to get them a lead earlier before Hedo hit a 3 to put Orlando up with 4 seconds left) He scored 10 points in OT, but was he not clutch because he didn't make his second crazy desparation 3 with 1.7 seconds left?

If you don't think LeBron can score at the end of games you haven't been watching, and if you think he in any way choked aganist the Magic in 08-09 then you didn't watch the games.

[BballTim]

  I'm not a huge fan of arguments about which player has taken a worse team farther because in some respects the players make the beds that they lie in. Some of them are too ball dominant to coexist/mesh well with other good offensive players, so they generally end up surrounded by defender/rebounders and spot up shooters. In retrospect, it looks like they're on untalented teams, but those are frequently the role players that work best with the stars. If Rondo hadn't gone wild in that Cavs series they had a good chance at reaching the finals, which would put them (best record in the nba IIRC) at a similar level of success with last years Heat team, although Wade/Bosh/Chalmers/whoever is tremendously better than that Cavs supporting cast.

[Moranis]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

The type of players fit with Lebron, but they weren't near talented enough to win a title.  Just like Philly built a team around Iverson, but that team could have never won a title because there wasn't enough talent around Iverson (though that might be as much Iverson's fault as anyones).  The Cavs were perhaps the worst team to ever make the NBA finals (yes worse than Philly thought that is arguable). 

[StartOrien]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

The type of players fit with Lebron, but they weren't near talented enough to win a title.  Just like Philly built a team around Iverson, but that team could have never won a title because there wasn't enough talent around Iverson (though that might be as much Iverson's fault as anyones).  The Cavs were perhaps the worst team to ever make the NBA finals (yes worse than Philly thought that is arguable). 

At the same time, the narrative of Lebron's legacy could've been greatly altered if Antawn Jamison and Mo Williams didn't play so horrific against the Celtics.

Part of that is the type of players they are - Mo Williams gets  hot and cold, and Jamison just couldn't keep up with Garnett on either side of the court - but they played especially poor and still took the eventual Eastern Conference Finals to 6 games.

[Moranis]

You have a drastically different view of the guys LeBron played with than I do.

That Cavs roster wasn't particularly talented, but this was something I was thinking about the other day:

It was kind of a perfect cast for Lebron, and they might not have needed that much more.

Defensive center to protect the rim, stretch 4 for spacing, and a great shooter at the 1 who doesn't need/want to bring the ball up the floor.

Perhaps what they needed was some more consistency out of Mo Williams and another scorer at the off-guard.

EDIT: And yes, I bashed that team about as hard as anyone else.

DOUBLE EDIT: I have an uncomfortable amount of love for Chris Paul, but he's not the best player in the NBA

I've got no qualms with that analysis, but I'd like to phrase it a little differently.

I think that squad was constructed perfectly to complement their respective talents with LeBrons, but it had a low ceiling. Its the difference between the Spurs' recent team built around Dirk, and LeBron's Cavs team.

One team had HOF talent, and a smartly and uniquely fit supporting cast.

LeBron is maximizing a Honda civic in Cleveland. But Dirk was messing around with a Lexus.

Rental car from Avis.

There's some truth there, and I'll make one last point b/c I don't want to derail the conversation too far:

But I don't think the difference from Lebron's Cavs and Dirk's Mavs were as significant as you suggest. In fact, they're surprisingly similar - though the Cavs counterparts are kind of 80% of their Mavs equivalent (Varejao isn't Chandler but he's kind of close, Mo Williams isn't the jet but he's kind of close).

Again, I don't want to derail things too far with a random thought I had which was really wondering if you could argue solely from a basketball stand point that staying on the Cavs might've been a better move for Lebron.

The Mavs had a much better supporting cast.  Just look at the rest of the starting five and the bench of those teams

Kidd v. Hughes - Kidd a much better floor general, shooter, and rebounder, but Hughes was a more dynamic offensive player - edge Kidd

Stevenson v. Pavlovic - defense v. offense, but Stevenson was a better all around player - edge Stevenson

Marion v. Gooden - even at Marion's age, he was still better than Gooden in virtually every aspect - big edge Marion

Chandler v. Illgauskas - Z was a much better offensive player and still a pretty solid rebounder, but he was no where near the defender - slight edge Z

Terry v. Gibson - Boobie would be lucky to be called a poor man's Jason Terry - huge edge Terry

Barea v. Snow - Snow was old and slow, but still a decent floor general, but he wasn't as good as Barea - edge Barea

Haywood v. Varejao - Very similar players, but at this stage Haywood was the better player - slight edge Haywood

Stojakovic v. Marshall - very similar players at that stage of their careers, but Peja was more effective and put in more minutes - edge Peja


The Mavs were better at virtually every position and the one they weren't was arguable.  If Lebron had Dirk's supporting cast there is a very good chance they would have beaten the Spurs and won the title in 06-07 (afterall the Cavs lost the two games in Cleveland by a combined 4 points and Hughes didn't even play in those two games - thus a little better supporting cast could have meant wins in those games for sure).